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 The remake of Water.

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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: The remake of Water.   Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:12 pm

Alright, I know that we have a different thread for discussing the remake of water, but it gets convoluted and full of discussion. This thread is a place us to actually shown our polished ideas after we discuss them in the other thread. It will be much easier for Rhys and Pythagoras to see everything in a summary here. First off, I would ask that Jay J. copy and paste the current Water element spells from the section. (I could do it, but he can copy and paste the code that goes with it by hitting edit on the post. I can't do that, and it would be alot more work for me to do the same edit.) Just put that information into this post, and then when a spell replacement is sufficiently polished, we will put it here in place of what used to be. I'll keep a changelog at the bottom listing exactly what we do to Water.

So, go ahead and post any spell in entirety that you think is balanced and polished enough from the other thread. Make sure not to just post random stuff, keep it to the things multiple people agree with before you actually suggest adding it here. I will be essentially moderating this thread, but discussion is open in the other thread and Jay has my permission to edit this stuff as well.

Bubble (4 levels) [Q]
Mana Cost: 65/75/85/95/105
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 750
Cooldown: 8 seconds
Damage: 1.00/1.75/2.50/3.25/4.00 * Power
Skill Point Cost: 3/3/3/3/3

Total Skill Point Cost: 15

Water Elemental (3 levels) [W]

Effect: Summons a Water Elemental which lasts for 120 seconds. Converts into a , 1/3, Crushing wave upon death going in the direction the unit was facing. (One wave from Geyser or Ripple centered on the location of death could be considered instead of the Crushing Wave.)

Mana Cost: 100/125/175
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: None
Cooldown: 18 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 6/5/4


Total Skill Point Cost: 15

Mist (3 levels) (Seriously, help me think of a better name.)[E]

Effect: Uses the water moisture in the air to cleanse and dispel buffs and damage summoned units. Anything without a buff moves more slowly due to poor visibility.
Deals damage to summoned units.

Mana Cost: 90/95/100
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 750
Cooldown: 21 seconds
Area of Effect: 100/150/200 Adds 10 AoE for every point in power
Slow: 1% per 3 points in Power. 1 duration for every 10 points in Essence.
Damage to Summoned Units: 350/700/1050
Skill Point Cost: 4/4/4

Total Skill Point Cost: 12

Bubble Aura (4 levels) [D]

Effect: Gives an additional mana regeneration bonus to nearby friendly units.

Casting Type: Passive
Casting Range: 900 Aura
Mana Regeneration: 0.25%/0.3%/0.35%/0.4% Total mana per second. Also adds a static 0.5/1/1.5/2 mana per second at all levels.
Skill Point Cost: 4/4/4/4

Total Skill Point Cost: 16

Crushing Wave (3 levels) [A]

Effect: Launches a giant wave at target location, which hits enemy units as it travels in a line, dealing its damage to those units.

Mana Cost: 95/110/125
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 900
Cooldown: 14 seconds
Damage: 1.25/2.5/3.75*Power
Skill Point Cost: 6/6/6

Total Skill Point Cost: 18

Ripple (3 levels) [S]

Effect: The mage uses the water moisture in the air to send out ripples that damage and silence enemies per waves. 0.5 second silence per wave. Each ripple comes out in one second intervals.

Mana Cost: 135/190/245
Casting Type: AoE around mage (Or at target point. Discuss please.)
Casting Range: 600 AoE around the mage (Or 300 AoE at target point with 600 casting range.)
Cooldown: 21 seconds
Damage: 1.0/1.5/2.0*Power per wave
Skill Point Cost: 6/6/6

Total Skill Point Cost: 18

Mana Shield (4 levels) [R]

Effect: Activates a shield that absorbs 75% of damage received, using a mana points instead of health. Adds mana regen based on 0.6/0.8/1.0/1.2% of CURRENT mana.

Mana Cost: 25/30/35/40
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: Personal
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Damage absorbed per mana: 0.50/0.75/1.00/1.25
Skill Point Cost: 5/5/5/5

Total Skill Point Cost: 20

Mana Flare (3 levels) [F] (Debated.)

Effect: Creates a ward that damages mages based on the amount of mana they expend.

Mana Cost: 75/100/125
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 600
Cooldown: 26 seconds
Area of Effect: 400/500/600
Duration: 8/9/10 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 6/6/6

Ward does damage based on mana of the spell the enemy mage uses at 0.5/0.75/1.00 damage per point of mana.
Total Skill Point Cost: 18

??? [C] (Torrent -Only the name really Razz.- and Aqua Sphere are the current candidates.)

Effect: ???

Mana Cost: ???
Casting Type: ???
Casting Range:???
Skill Point Cost: ???

Total Skill Point Cost: ???

Water Form (2 levels) [X]

Effect: Causes this unit to turn into Water whenever it takes damage, temporarily avoiding any further damage for 1.5 seconds.

Mana Cost: 35/0
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: Personal
Cooldown: 6.5 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 5/6

Total Skill Point Cost:11

Replenish (3 levels) [Z]

Effect: Restores mana to all friendly units in a 525 AoE. Based on current mana.

Mana Cost: 10/10/10
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 525 AoE
Cooldown: 23 seconds
Mana Restored: 35/50/65 + 5%/6%/7% of your current mana
Skill Point Cost: 7/7/7

Total Skill Point Cost: 21

Jay.J: I'll be heavily moderating this thread. Post in the other topic. This is for final output/decisions.

Dragonheart91: Me too. Basically I'll try to keep Jay in check so he doesn't do things that aren't agreed upon. *Looks at Mana Flare.*


Last edited by Dragonheart91 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:32 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:46 pm

Bumping this for Rhys and Pythagoras to notice it. I'm pretty happy with all of the suggestions here besides Mana Flare, but that is a whole other story.
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:20 pm

Bumping again now that Rhys is actually here. Take a look at our suggestions, and also glance at the accompanying thread here if you need more ideas.


Edit: Hey Jay, I made a few minor edits to multiple spells just now and fixed alot of typos. Feel free to look it over again and see if you have any arguments with the changes I just made. (I bet you won't notice because they were all fairly minor.)
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:47 pm

Quote :
Bubble (4 levels) [Q]
Mana Cost: 65/75/85/95/105
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 750
Cooldown: 8 seconds
Damage: 1.00/1.75/2.50/3.25/4.00 * Power
Skill Point Cost: 3/3/3/3/3
Total Skill Point Cost: 15
4*power targeted 8 second cooldown skill? that's a bit imba. but seeing how it no longer stuns... question; does it still interrupt sanctuary? (my guess is no)

but still, reduce to .7*power per level, or 1+(.5*level), and increase the cooldown a bit.


Quote :
Water Elemental (3 levels) [W]

Effect: Summons a Water Elemental which lasts for 120 seconds. Converts into a , 1/3, Crushing wave upon death going in the direction the unit was facing. (One wave from Geyser or Ripple centered on the location of death could be considered instead of the Crushing Wave.)

Mana Cost: 100/125/175
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: None
Cooldown: 18 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 6/5/4

Total Skill Point Cost: 15
i think that ripple would do better. makes more sense for water to "spread out" rather than "rush forward" lol. the ripple should have 1/2 chance to silence. (also, please see what i have to say about ripple below)

Quote :

Mist (3 levels) (Seriously, help me think of a better name.)[E]

Effect: Uses the water moisture in the air to cleanse and dispel buffs and damage summoned units. Anything without a buff moves more slowly due to poor visibility.
Deals damage to summoned units.

Mana Cost: 90/95/100
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 750
Cooldown: 21 seconds
Area of Effect: 100/150/200 Adds 10 AoE for every point in power
Slow: 1% per 3 points in Power. 1 duration for every 10 points in Essence.
Damage to Summoned Units: 350/700/1050
Skill Point Cost: 4/4/4
Total Skill Point Cost: 12
First of all, this should be less complicated. I also think that the mist itself should stay there. So its pretty much like: A mage uses mist at an area, everything thats in the mist is slowed, loses its buffs, and (if it's a summon) takes 175/350/525 dps. (or 150/325/475)

Taking into account the stats of your average mage with a 31/62/31 (but not counting gear), at max level, it will have 262 AoE with 20% slow for 3 seconds... which is pretty pitiful. Earthquake does better than that, slowing by 30-ish% in a 425 AoE for 20-ish seconds while dealing damage. Yes, eq is channeled, but it doesnt take a fully maxed mage to do that...

I'd like to see this skill as a disable/support move, for chasing and hindering. It needs more AoE. Duration and slow are fine... more or less. Summons damage should be DPS.

Quote :

Bubble Aura (4 levels) [D]

Effect: Gives an additional mana regeneration bonus to nearby friendly units.

Casting Type: Passive
Casting Range: 900 Aura
Mana Regeneration: 0.25%/0.3%/0.35%/0.4% Total mana per second. Also adds a static 1/1.5/2/2.5 mana per second at all levels.
Skill Point Cost: 4/4/4/4
Total Skill Point Cost: 16
situation: max level bubble aura + level 62 mage with 1000 mana. 4+2.5 = 6.5mana per second. I'm not sure how this should be balanced, but it needs to be.

Quote :

Crushing Wave (3 levels) [A]

Effect: Launches a giant wave at target location, which hits enemy units as it travels in a line, dealing its damage to those units.

Mana Cost: 95/110/125
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 900
Cooldown: 14 seconds
Damage: 1.25/2.5/3.75*Power
Skill Point Cost: 6/6/6
Total Skill Point Cost: 18
This is fine.

Quote :

Ripple (3 levels) [S]

Effect: The mage uses the water moisture in the air to send out ripples that damage and silence enemies per waves. 0.5 second silence per wave. Each ripple comes out in one second intervals.

Mana Cost: 135/190/245
Casting Type: AoE around mage (Or at target point. Discuss please.)
Casting Range: 600 AoE around the mage (Or 300 AoE at target point with 600 casting range.)
Cooldown: 21 seconds
Damage: 1.0/1.5/2.0*Power per wave
Skill Point Cost: 6/6/6
Total Skill Point Cost: 18
This should be an AoE around the mage. Once activated, the mage can move around freely while ripples come in waves. The damage needs to be lowered; this is not a damage spell, it was meant to be a dps disable. Something like... 1, 1.25, 1.50

Time between waves and time until first wave should also scale with level.

Level 1
0 sec- mage activates ripple
1 sec- 1st ripple
2 sec- 2nd ripple
3 sec- 3rd ripple

Level 2
0 sec- mage activates ripple
.8 sec- 1st ripple
1.8 sec- 2nd ripple
2.8 sec- 3rd ripple

Level 3
0 sec- mage activates ripple
.6 sec- 1st ripple
1.5 sec- 2nd ripple
2.4 sec- 3rd ripple

(will need balancing, but that's the basic idea)



Quote :

Mana Shield (4 levels) [R]

Effect: Activates a shield that absorbs 75% of damage received, using a mana points instead of health. Adds mana regen based on 0.6/0.8/1.0/1.2% of CURRENT mana.

Mana Cost: 25/30/35/40
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: Personal
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Mana per Health: 0.75/1.00/1.25/1.50
Skill Point Cost: 5/5/5/5
Total Skill Point Cost: 20
Neutral
why the mana regen?

with current numbers, max bubble aura + mana shield = somewhere around 15 mana per second when a mage is at 800+ mana.

i say no to mana regen, unless there's a static number, like 1 mana at all levels.

Quote :

Mana Flare (3 levels) [F] (Debated.)

Effect: Creates a ward that damages mages based on the amount of mana they expend.

Mana Cost: 75/100/125
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 600
Cooldown: 26 seconds
Area of Effect: 400/500/600
Duration: 8/9/10 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 6/6/6
Ward does damage based on mana of the spell the enemy mage uses at 0.5/0.75/1.00 damage per point of mana.
Total Skill Point Cost: 18
A very cheat spell, imo. With a whole lot of mages, the mana flare will not be seen easily. Many mages go straight into combos and end up dying.


Quote :

??? [C] (Torrent -Only the name really .- and Aqua Sphere are the current candidates.)

Effect: ???

Mana Cost: ???
Casting Type: ???
Casting Range:???
Skill Point Cost: ???
Total Skill Point Cost: ???

Water Form (2 levels) [X]

Effect: Causes this unit to turn into Water whenever it takes damage, temporarily avoiding any further damage for 1.5 seconds.

Mana Cost: 35/0
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: Personal
Cooldown: 6.5 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 5/6
Total Skill Point Cost:11

Replenish (3 levels) [Z]

Effect: Restores mana to all friendly units in a 525 AoE. Based on current mana.

Mana Cost: 5/10/15
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 525 AoE
Cooldown: 23 seconds
Mana Restored: 35/70/105 + 5%/6%/7% of your current mana
Skill Point Cost: 7/7/7
Total Skill Point Cost: 21
I don't have time to respond to the rest, but i'll say one thing (as i have with all the other X% of mana moves); using the high mana water mage of 800-1000 mana, that replenish will recover about 150 mana in a 525 AoE. Death pact for your whole team? bad choice.
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:02 pm

Meh, not really feeling the whole looking over it unless Rhys says he's even going to use this....

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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:37 pm

I completely disagree with kuro on almost everything. She seems to think that Water is a damage element. Water has few damage spells, so the ones it does have can be a bit powerful. It's focused on Mana Regeneration, but doesn't have much to do with the mana it has gained. I might go over every point individually later.


But yeah, I would appreciate if Rhys said he was interested in using any of this. Especially Ripple, Replenish, the ultimate, and the Water Elemental on death thing.
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:58 pm

what about the mbooks that have those powerful spells?
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:10 am

i said water is NOT a damage element!!! =.=


please look at my numbers compared what is there.


im also saying the regen is too much.


this water + my old earth-water = 20ish mana regen... do you really think thats good? oh, and btw, that's not counting my natural mana regeneration.
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:04 am

You guys really fail to see concepts. This was addressed when I first made them.

The only constant mana regen is from Bubble aura. From 600-1000 mana, that makes it 4.9 mana regen to 6.5 regen.

Mana Shield and Replenish. Read them. Read them CAREFULLY. And then think about it.

CURRENT MANA. What does that mean? If you have full mana...mana regen means NOTHING, since you can't go more than full Smile. What does that mean when you're LOW on mana? You barely get anything. What does that mean? You need to really watch your mana. It takes skill to balance it so that you're at a high point so you got good regen, but using enough mana to not be wasting that regen.

I repeat CURRENT mana. Sure you get 12 mana regen extra when you have 1000...but all that means is once you're high you stay high. The moment you lose mana, you lose regen. It's counter-synergy. You need mana regen when you're low on mana, not high on mana. When you have say, 300 mana left in your pool of 1000, you're only getting 3.6 mana more.

Yes? Current mana =/= overpowered.

killll brings up a decent point however. It could become quite strong with other elements, perhaps a little too strong. However I think it's better to start off overpowered and nerf it since it's currently so underpowered.

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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:08 am

I only readed some, and i'm only gonna talk about this:

Quote :
You guys really fail to see concepts. This was addressed when I first made them.

The only constant mana regen is from Bubble aura. From 600-1000 mana, that makes it 4.9 mana regen to 6.5 regen.

Mana Shield and Replenish. Read them. Read them CAREFULLY. And then think about it.

CURRENT MANA. What does that mean? If you have full mana...mana regen means NOTHING, since you can't go more than full . What does that mean when you're LOW on mana? You barely get anything. What does that mean? You need to really watch your mana. It takes skill to balance it so that you're at a high point so you got good regen, but using enough mana to not be wasting that regen.

I repeat CURRENT mana. Sure you get 12 mana regen extra when you have 1000...but all that means is once you're high you stay high. The moment you lose mana, you lose regen. It's counter-synergy. You need mana regen when you're low on mana, not high on mana. When you have say, 300 mana left in your pool of 1000, you're only getting 3.6 mana more.

Yes? Current mana =/= overpowered.

killll brings up a decent point however. It could become quite strong with other elements, perhaps a little too strong. However I think it's better to start off overpowered and nerf it since it's currently so underpowered.

I think the CURRENT mana related regen could be good and quite unique.

Also, Jay is right about Water being overpowered first and then nerfed.
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:25 am

The only problem is with element/Water, but the current mana thing does alot to help there. Yes it's a big buff, and yes a few things could be nerfed a bit, (I've actually been constantly nerfing the stuff without consent from Jay for a while now. I think it's relatively balanced ATM.) but Water needs it. The few damage spells it has won't be enough to kill very often, and most of them are over time anyway.


Btw, Bubble should still mini-stun and interrupt Invincibility. (It interrupts Sanctuary, Medallion of Courage, AND Earthen Skin btw.)
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:53 am

Quote :
??? [C] (Torrent -Only the name really .- and Aqua Sphere are the current candidates.)

Effect: ???

Mana Cost: ???
Casting Type: ???
Casting Range:???
Skill Point Cost: ???
Total Skill Point Cost: ???

Water Form (2 levels) [X]

Effect: Causes this unit to turn into Water whenever it takes damage, temporarily avoiding any further damage for 1.5 seconds.

Mana Cost: 35/0
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: Personal
Cooldown: 6.5 seconds
Skill Point Cost: 5/6
Total Skill Point Cost:11

I think it should be "disperse," or "vapor (insert something like FORM or MORPH here)"

I also think torrent should be there instead of aqua sphere Razz




Okay so, dragon, with your current changes, water is a mass mana regen beast. Seeing how water is one of your favorite elements, I know it can be hard to avoid being biased. You say "water needs it," which it does, but not that much.

Jay.J, i already know the 'current mana' thing. Yes its less IMBA in certain situations... but still.

[im just wondering, does bubble aura mean the water mage's mana (2.5+.4%) or individual mana (meaning the regen would vary from mage to mage)?


Things to keep in mind:
-1000mana mage with bubble aura will have 6.5 mana regen per second, i'm assuming to everyone around them.
-500mana mage with mana shield gets +6 mana regen. 750 mana gets +9 mana regen. 1000mana mage gets +12 mana regen. My earth/water with 1200 mana gets 14.5 mana regen. (that's its max mana, but anyway, 1000-1200 mana near it's max is EXTREMELY imba.) So you see, the mana regen is imba... [see note at bottom for additional comments] mbooks
-at 1000 mana, my earthwater gets close to 20 mana regen. (say what you will about that being close to max, but 20 mana regen is imba in any situation unless its only for a few seconds.)
-1000 mana mage uses replenish giving ALL ALLIES +175 mana. Mine at max gives 189... well, really... doesnt matter too much if its helping me or not, but my allies sure are getting a heck of a lot of help from that...

Spoiler:
 


Spoiler:
 
Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:10 am

The whole point is to give large regeneration to your allies. Regenerating 20 mana per second while you have 1000+ mana is kinda insignificant;. It gives you nearly limitless casting of 1-2 spells, but any attempt to combo things causes your mana and therefore mana regen to drop drastically.

Most of the time your looking at 4ish regen per second average from Bubble Aura, and 6ish from Mana Shield in my opinion. It's alot, but Water is the primary mana regeneration support element. It deserves to be good at it's specialty.
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:55 am

replenish?

(i still think it should be nerfed)
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:39 pm

I agree. Replenish should have its static mana downed. Make it 50 at the highest level.

Quote :
Things to keep in mind:
-1000mana mage with bubble aura will have 6.5 mana regen per second, i'm assuming to everyone around them.
-500mana mage with mana shield gets +6 mana regen. 750 mana gets +9 mana regen. 1000mana mage gets +12 mana regen. My earth/water with 1200 mana gets 14.5 mana regen. (that's its max mana, but anyway, 1000-1200 mana near it's max is EXTREMELY imba.) So you see, the mana regen is imba... [see note at bottom for additional comments] mbooks
-at 1000 mana, my earthwater gets close to 20 mana regen. (say what you will about that being close to max, but 20 mana regen is imba in any situation unless its only for a few seconds.)
-1000 mana mage uses replenish giving ALL ALLIES +175 mana. Mine at max gives 189... well, really... doesnt matter too much if its helping me or not, but my allies sure are getting a heck of a lot of help from that...

Perhaps slightly lower the static for bubble aura again. Do recall...that when you got Mana Shield on...I attack you, and you now have no mana, so no regen. Perhaps, lower the damage:mana ratio. What's the point of having 20MP regen, if....you already have full mana?

So here's what should be changed

Less static on Replenish
Less static on Bubble Aura
Less Damage absorbed per point of mana

The whole point of this change wasn't just a buff to Water, it was to make it scale as well, since currently a level 35 Water mage is BETTER than a level 62 water mage, because it brings down the average level of the team and has the SAME function, with NO differences, at least not noticeable ones.

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Dragonheart91
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Primary Move: Cursed Waves (pwned much?)

PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:03 pm

Yeah, kinda true. Go ahead and make those changes if you want Jay.
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killll
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Primary Move: Fire nova / Fire Orb

PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:39 pm

Bubble (4 levels) [Q]
Mana Cost: 65/75/85/95/105
Casting Type: Instant
Casting Range: 750
Cooldown: 8 seconds
Damage: 1.00/1.75/2.50/3.25/4.00 * Power
Skill Point Cost: 3/3/3/3/3

Total Skill Point Cost: 15


Shouldn't it be 5 levels not 4?
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:18 pm

4 power? What's the current one? That seems too strong....Isn't it like 3x power right now? I mean it has a stun >.> .... and it's targeted... I thought the reason Lightning Strike was completely raped to uselessness was because of that???

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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:26 pm

The reason it was never a problem was because of the low damage dealing potential of Water. But, it's fine to have it at 3.5 IMO. Btw, even though it is targeted, it can still be dodged. Any blink or invulnerability skill used between when the slow moving projectile is fired and when it hits you will let you avoid it. (Although it will disrupt the invul and still stun you if you dodge it that way.) The point is, it's less instant than Lightning Strike, has short range, and is on an element that doesn't combo well with the damage.


How about 1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5? Maintaining the .5 second stun. (Or at least a minimum of .2 seconds.)
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Piddagoras
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:48 pm

Jay.J wrote:
4 power? What's the current one? That seems too strong....Isn't it like 3x power right now? I mean it has a stun >.> .... and it's targeted... I thought the reason Lightning Strike was completely raped to uselessness was because of that???

The current bubble isn't 4xpower, its the same as Pop, i believe.

The only reason i rewrote Lightning Strike was because people thought you shouldn't be able to do more than 600 damage without having to aim.

And Dragonheart91 is incorrect about blink or invulnerability stopping Bubble from dealing its damage. Unless you are invulnerable when the bubble actually deals its damage, you WILL take the damage from it. Just because it looks like a normal WC3 missile doesnt mean that's how its coded.

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killll
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:52 pm

Bubble is x3.75 Just a fyi...and it says bubble is 4 levels in this and it's 5 isnt it?
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:57 pm

Quote :
The only reason i rewrote Lightning Strike was because people thought you shouldn't be able to do more than 600 damage without having to aim.

That's stupid. Holy has the pretty much same spell as the old Lightning Strike without the critical. I liked the old one better. You really only had 2 usable damage spells, and one luck damage spell that was easily countered. That and 2 disables. However - it couldn't combo nearly as well as Ice or Fire. You should have gotten rid of the luck factor, not the easy factor.

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kuro
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:10 pm

Jay.j, stop ignoring what i say.

The point of it is that you have a hell of a lot of mana regen. Seriously...

Full mana = not cheat

Low mana = not cheat

Some mana to Lotsa mana = VERY cheat

(2.5 + (.4*M)) + (1.2*M) = Regen
(2.5 + 1.6*M) = Regen

M = 0; R = 2.5
M = 100; R = 4.1
M = 200; R = 5.7
M = 300; R = 7.3
M = 400; R = 8.9
M = 500; R = 10.5
M = 600; R = 12.1
M = 700; R = 13.7
M = 800; R = 15.3
M = 900; R = 16.9
M = 1000; R = 17.6
M = 1100; R = 19.2
M = 1200; R = 20.8

now look at those numbers and TELL me that's not a heck of a lot of mana regeneration... and that's not even counting the effectiveness of replenish. or the effectiveness of that mana regeneration in an mbook.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:30 pm

I would say nerf the regeneration on Mana Shield a bit more, and maybe a VERY minor nerf to Bubble Aura. 10 at 500 mana is a bit high.
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AquaAscension
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PostSubject: Re: The remake of Water.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:36 pm

Perhaps you should take into account how much damage each spell does and then figure out how much mana that would take away from a mage using mana shield. What is it at max level? 2 points of damage for 1 point of mana? So a 400 damage spell does 200 mana or so? Okay now add up the cost for bubble, crushing wave, and geyser... something like 85, 125, and 275? Maybe throw in an elemental too for 175 or something. 85+125+275+175 is 660. You may want to check my math on that, but I'm pretty sure it's right. Okay add in that a 400 damage spell subtracts 200 mana. You now have 860 gone from your pool of, let's say 1200. Meaning that the mage now has 340 left. Let's check your chart...

They're now down to 7.3 regen/sec. Not that much.

The reason why water NEEDS this is because it IS balanced. You can either take damage, or you can cast spells, but not both and still have epic mana regeneration. My opinion, and I'll say this bluntly, is to get over your hang ups, Kuro. Perhaps I'm lobbying for Jay at the moment, but that's because he has shown a little bit more thought going into his answers. You barely even seem to consider what this will do in the grand scheme of things.

There are a couple places where I'll concede that this may be very strong. One is with ice/water. I know my old mage could stand a ton of punishment and never have its shield fall, however, it was fragile. It could not cast and take damage at the same time. I believe that adding in these kinds of changes to water would allow many different combinations of water mages to be successful, but still be hampered by the strategy of defense vs. offense.

Try new stuff perhaps. If it doesn't work, then, by all means, gloat and do a happy dance. But before you dismiss it straight away, take a slightly closer look at some of the real-life statistics.

You can't possibly know the future. Thus, you can't possibly KNOW how the changes to water will affect the game.
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