New Water Spell

I wanna apologize for insulting diaster, that was mean and I'm sorry. Feel free to come back, and I won't say anything.

Anyway, it is the fundamental base of this spell that I loathe. I don't care what numbers it gets or how balanced it is, I would not use a Water mage with this spell, and would probably curse at my screen whenever I played against a Water mage.

Again, I ask as many other people as possible to look at this and decide whether they agree with Jay that it adds strategy, or with me that it is fundamentally bad in a game of mages.

it must be no lower than c spell, and the mage must channel the ward, while the ward gives a flashy entrance w/ a 1 sec start delay on burning. Only way I'll consider the thing being added...

(I'm actually just tabbing through a few forums, didn't even realize you insulted me...)

Solution 1: make it so you have to click on the ward and make it start channeling.


Solution 2: make it easily noticable a second AFTER casting.


Solution 3: give it an aura, e.g. devolution aura -1 to let everyone else notice that there is a ward in range. *eg;dota;barathum;charge of darkness; lets the person being charged they are being charged with a buff*

if tier 1 spell: .4 dmg per mana

if tier 2 spell: .6 dmg per mana

if tier 3 spell: .8 dmg per mana

if C spell: 1dmg per mana

kuro, your "Solution 3" is already there.

Also, are you supporting this spell over Aqua Sphere? Or the other remake that Rhys had planned for Silence? Do think this should be on a different key? Give some descriptions here please.

im saying if its going to be implemented it better be balanced. im not against it or for it. in my opinion it will be imba unless you're an earth mage...

aqua sphere would be fun and more balanced. i personally would like aquasphere more than a mana flare ward- its already in a lot of games.

an aquasphere ability makes more sense than manaflaring anyway.

aquasphere>manaflare

I agree, and it probably won't be as difficult to make either with all the stuff that has to be done to mana flare for balance.

i like both, wouldnt mind either, but i am for none.

as diaster said it would be easy to balance any of them...

how many water spells are we changing anyway? someone clarify please. there is much proof that water needs a LOAD of rebalancing/replacing.

Quote :

Anyway, it is the fundamental base of this spell that I loathe. I don't care what numbers it gets or how balanced it is, I would not use a Water mage with this spell, and would probably curse at my screen whenever I played against a Water mage
Again, I ask as many other people as possible to look at this and decide whether they agree with Jay that it adds strategy, or with me that it is fundamentally bad in a game of mages.

So you just admitted HUGE bias. You said you don't care how balanced it is...or how much stratagy it adds, it's just a bad spell because it's a game of mages - when it's actually less powerful than silence (though slightly more offensive). Great logic...

Quote :

Also, are you supporting this spell over Aqua Sphere? Or the other remake that Rhys had planned for Silence? Do think this should be on a different key? Give some descriptions here please.

The C spell is still open. Either this or Aqua Sphere can go in there. I don't know why you're against it when there's still an open spot for a spell >.<.

Quote :

im saying if its going to be implemented it better be balanced. im not against it or for it. in my opinion it will be imba unless you're an earth mage...

The spell is balanced as far as I'm concerned. They think the CONCEPT is imbalanced. I find that a stupid arguement, because that's an opinion, and a poorly based one since he somewhere agreed that Silence is imbalanced in a game of mages - yet there is an element based around silence. Seriously, No choice to cast > Choice to cast with consequences. Wind is, if anything underpowered.

I also don't understand how Earth would be better against this... It has GG which can outrange the ward, but you can just kill it. Any mage, can stand around, and an archer attacks it >.<. If anything a summoner has an advg because they can cast a summon and have it deal with the ward while they go in.

a. I don't think it fits well with water.
b. Its an all or nothing spell, it eaither useless, or its real useless, most likely useless, due to being able to be killed easy.
c. It doesn't work well in a mage game to have a penalty for casting a spell.
d. i think we can do better for a C spell than a melee spell, modifyed a bit.

With Lagger, that brings to vote to 4 against this, and 1 for it. (Me, diaster, Lagger, kuro are against.) (Jay J. is for it.)


Also, I suggested a possible [C] spell. Torrent was my suggestion, and it might not be balanced or a good choice, but I would like to start some conversation on it. Go back a few pages to find the suggestion if you wish. (I spent over an hour balancing, coloring, and sizing crap so it would look official, please take the time to read it?)

Quote :

a. I don't think it fits well with water.

Pseudo-silence and casting control based on mana. You get punished based on how much you would do to the water mage.

Quote :

b. Its an all or nothing spell, it eaither useless, or its real useless, most likely useless, due to being able to be killed easy.

That's where you're wrong. You can use it as a lure, like I've already said. If they come up, you go and use Ripple, which has just enough range to hit them if they try to kill it - and are silenced for 0.5 seconds every second for 3 seconds. I created synergy that...well clearly some of you can't see atleast not untill you play it.

Quote :

c. It doesn't work well in a mage game to have a penalty for casting a spell.

It works PERFECTLY in a mage game to have a penalty for casting spells. Unlike you, instead of just saying my opinion - I'll back it up. Timing is one major part of skill in most games on WC3. MM&M is no exception. Like you said this skill is a make or break skill. With timing, it's a good skill. Using it in someones mid combo to make them take damage, or to halter them and stop casting for a while. It's meant to be a dirupment based on CHOICE. Not based on no choice, like silence or stun. The opponenet chooses which punishment he gets - either not being able to cast, or damage. It's a situational spell, and you have to be good to use it in the right situations.

Quote :

d. i think we can do better for a C spell than a melee spell, modifyed a bit.

Lame, lame arguement. Infernal? Mana Burn? Phase shift? Mana sheild? FoD? Death Coil? Unholy aura? Seriously, I could keep on listing melee spells that are in this game. Are these spells good? Ya they are. Do they fit? Ya they do. Just because it's "Unoriginal" doesn't mean it's not a good spell. It made it to ladder for a reason. It's a good tactical spell. Second off, it doesn't have to be a C spell, and I suggest it DOESN'T become a C spell, and would rather see Aqua Sphere be there, or some other spell.

Edit:

I would rather see a buffed version of Aqua Sphere as the C spell for water. Also, you're For and Against spell isn't all that fair - since I've taken most of your arguements and killed them >.<. You don't really have much of a reason besides, not wanting it there. Also I'm unsure - but I think Djinni was atleast semi on my side. Also, Kuro wasn't on your side.

Quote :

i like both, wouldnt mind either, but i am for none.

I think Death Coil is heavily enough altered that it isn't a melee spell anymore.

You are definitely right that your debating skills surpass ours, but in the end it is your opinion vs ours. We outnumber you, but you outskill us. Tough battle!

Also, I'm glad you like Aqua Sphere, please feel free to comment on any changes to it. I know it's not perfect and could use some balance and stuff most likely.

Check out Torrent too, I think that is a fun Water spell name if nothing else. I like the effect to though.

Edit: Well, kuro was semi-on my side. He said it was ok, but it would need more balancing, and that he would rather see Aqua Sphere than Mana Flare. Also, can we get DarkDjinni in here to actually say his own opinion? Sometimes I wish he wouldn't be such a recluse. Post your opinion Dark!

Edit Edit: If kuro said he would rather see neither like your quote suggests, then that is a vote for my "side." My side of the debate is that Mana Flare should not be considered in any modified form for this map. If he doesn't want it, then he supports me.


P.S. @kuro: We have another thread showing the current proposed changes to Water. This thread is for discussing that one. I believe we are modifying every spell besides Crushing Wave and Phase Shift, and completely remaking at least 3-4.

Quote :

I think Death Coil is heavily enough altered that it isn't a melee spell anymore.

You're right. However, I didn't really even go through 2 elements - and the point still stood. Just because it's a melee spell doesn't mean it doesn't have a place here.

Quote :

You are definitely right that your debating skills surpass ours, but in the end it is your opinion vs ours. We outnumber you, but you outskill us. Tough battle!

Opinion, supported by facts. Supported by better theorycraft. Supported by logic. You also skewed the for and against. Kuro was neutral. And Djinni, is atleast semi on my side. And the reason you're against is BOTH because you don't like it, wouldn't want to use it or face it. That's lame. Who are you George Bush? Using instinct over facts >.< (Sorry for the direct attack, this might weaken my arguement since I'm attacking you...but SERIOUSLY.)

Quote :

Also, I'm glad you like Aqua Sphere, please feel free to comment on any changes to it. I know it's not perfect and could use some balance and stuff most likely.

I'll look over the suggested water and see if I can balance it.

Quote :

Check out Torrent too, I think that is a fun Water spell name if nothing else. I like the effect to though.

I think a channeled water stampede type move would work...I looked at it, and I'm not sure how yours works? Is it just spammed 1/4 waves sent out infront of the mage for 100 mana/sec?

not really, the one thing he hasn't counter yet is, to make mana flare balanced in this game would take more work to add than aqua sphere. There is also less debate over if aqua is op or not.
To balance mana flare
a ward must be made with the skill
trigger must be added to destroy ward when not channeled
trigger must be added for summoning of ward
trigger must be added for delay on ward

To make aqua sphere
trigger must be added for effect (maybe)

Mana flare channeled is useless. Also...seriously. Complexity in adding a spell to not add it? REALLY WHAT AM I ARGUEING WITH????

We have a genius like Pyth to code spells. Ughh, if anything the more complex a spell is, the more people should want it . And Aqua & Mana Flare can both be implemented. Atleast be up to date when you make an arguement.

Ehh, complexity is not an issue in my opinion. Pythagoras can do anything.

Complexity of BALANCE is a slightly larger issue, and that has a little more relevance.

Torrent launches the waves in the same pattern that Stampeded does. The spawn behind you and move like Stampede.

O though we were fighting over 1 spot, my bad..but then that leaves us down with 3 skills for 2 spots

-Mana Flare
-Aqua Sphere
-Torrent

Aqua sphere seems to have landed itself a spot, and I guess maybe a poll could be made on whether people want torrent or mana flare?

I disagree, neither Torrent or Mana Flare is good enough to be added right now. I think we need to either brainstorm more, or maybe let Rhys make a spell, or something else.

Torrent might be balanced or modified enough to be used, and I do like the name of it. It just isn't good right now.

We don't HAVE to put a spell we don't like into any spot. It would be better to leave the current spell than put in a bad one.

Mana Flare is balanced. I made the numbers - and it's not a hard thing to theorycraft unlike torrent. The numbers are good. Mana Flare, like it or not, is the most balanced spell out of those 3 options.

It also takes the support position of water regarding mana, and disabling unlike the other 2. It also replaces silence better than the other two.

Honestly, both of you guys are just so against the spell because you DON'T like it. You have no reason besides that for not wanting it.

i was envisioning aqua sphere or ripple taking the place of silence and/or geyser...

they are both a half disable, half damage spell

making them good for both spots.

dont want them as a C spell though.

Ripple is taking the place of geyser. It's a damage over time, mini silence. Mana Flare is replacing silence. It gives them a choice to cast, instead of forcing them not to cast. If they do cast, they get hurt. They can..not cast. And it would be the exact same as silence. Now they have the option, to back up or attack the ward doing the same thing as silence - which is giving the mage time. However, unlike before - it's synergyzed with Ripple.

It isn't taking the place of Silence if I can help it.

So far you have found no one else who supports Mana Flare.

Also, I would still kind of prefer Ripple to be a targeted 350 aoe instead of around you 600. But, I guess either way is ok.

3 skills being removed
Water Morph
Silence
Geyser

2 skills have been decided to replace (kinda)
Ripple
Aqua Sphere

Right now were debating what the last spot should goto, and from the poll in the last skill thread it seems like it is going to torrent. The only thing left that can be debated is if mana flare should not be the c spell and take ripple of aqua spheres place.

Alright. Simple, simple lamens terms.

Silence - No choice to cast. Once you're caught in it, you're fucked. Balanced spell, even in a GAME OF MAGES. We have a whole element around it.

Mana Flare - CHOICE to cast. Punishment for doing so. You either decide the punishment is worth it, or LIKE silence, you don't cast. It's a choice spell based on the opponent. That means it has lot's of tactical value as it effects different opponents in different ways.

To some it's a lure. Use it to make them attack it so you can come in and nuke them to hell.
Decoy, drop it down while running, distract them.
Anti-caster. Drop in a big team battle, or during a combo and make them either stop their assult or take minor punishment for doing so.

That's the beauty of this spell. It has different effects based on you're opponents playstyle. Not only do you, but they too have to adapt to the spell. It's versatile. It's balanced. It fits the role and theme of water as a supporter based on mana and spells.

Torrent on the other hand, in it's current form, is just a nuke. It's an NPC killer. It doesn't fit the role. The only great thing about the spell, is its name. It can be a great C spell with some work...but it still, unlike Mana Flare doesn't fit the role of water, not that it needs too.

Aqua Sphere, is like mana flare - atleast interesting, anti caster, tactical, and a support spell that fits waters theme, support based around mana. With some work, this can become a C spell as well. I think this would do better than Torrent as a C spell personaly.

However, Torrent, nor Aqua Sphere is a good replacement to Silence. It doesn't do anything of the sort. They both are good enough to be C spells, while Mana Flare wouldn't fill the role of a C spell that well. It's a good tier 2 replacement to Silence. You both have absolutely no reason, besides your opinion to not want it. You have an opinion, but it's not backed up by anything solid. It's as Dragon put's it "Something [you] loathe". He even says, that regardless of how balanced it is he doesn't want it.

I question, both diaster and Dragon's motives for not wanting this spell. Personaly, they (atleast in my view) have not put up a good reason to not implement it. It seems more like they are posting and argueing for post count. This may seem like a personal attack - and in some way is. I keep repeating myself, and you continue to not counter my points very well.

lol now you know how I feel with res , half of the reasons your getting are it shouldn't be added because people don't want it to happen. And I'm not for or against it, I though I made that clear when I made the list of the things that need to happen to it for it to be added. I decided to leave it up to the community by making a poll and so far torrent has winning, which is the only reason I'm really siding with torrent, well that and I think it would look really cool .