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 State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)

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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:37 am

Bad news guys, I'm finally announcing it. The game is dead. However, there is light for those who want to have it be continued. That will come later. For now, I'd like to say this is probably my last post concerning MM&M, and most likely will mean the end of all my involvement with it. I'll go a bit into what I'm currently doing, if you know or not, and hopefully get a better idea of where I've been. Sorry for being so afar for so long, but I'm coming back for a final word that will hopefully satisfy the final leave of me.

For the past month pretty much, I've been focused 50% on Combat Arms, 40% on DotA (playing games), and maybe 9% or so with some friends of mine. That last little 1% was MM&M, which came up for about 30 minutes in the entire past month then I closed it and never touched it again.

Playing Combat Arms gave me something fun, challenging, and progressive to do. Mages Magic & Mayhem truly wasn't progressing as fast as I'd hoped it would. Sure, every day I spent on it got me a step further into the future of the game... but it still wasn't enough. There was and still is about 6-10 months of work to do on the map. I simply don't have the effort to spare to put into that long journey. With school starting up soon, there's no way it'll be that 6-10 months and will probably extend into over a year - in which almost everyone will have moved on to a new game.

Warcraft III is old. Face it. It's been out for a long time and has been quite successful... sure. However, it's time is about to run out and it will be replaced with a better RTS. There is no way that MM&M will survive through an entirely new era of games. It simply wont happen. Why lead a path to a place that will only end in oblivion?

We've all heard it - Diablo 3... Starcraft 2... Age of Conan... all these great games that are coming out. The one I'm playing, even, is Combat Arms! A new game that I like! If MM&M were to continue, it'd soon run out of the players who play the game and fail horribly with the times. I know, I could probably move it into Starcraft 2 or something, but I basically don't want to. Yeah, it might be because I'm lazy or because I simply don't care... take it your way.

I was assigned to finish MM&M by Zync. It didn't happen. I didn't spend the time to put into the map all I could and moved on to something else.

Because I didn't finish it, I have some good and bad news. They're both the same thing though: the map is going open-source. That's right, I'm uploading an unprotected version of the map and attaching it to this post. If anyone has anyone who wants to attempt to finish the map or understand it, give the thing a shot. I'm sure you'll be surprised by the complexity of MM&M, which was one of the reasons why Zync quit. It's now another reason why I'm quitting. Wondering about those tiny little bugs you saw in every new version? It's because of how complex this map is for a Warcraft III add-on. This basically has enough hard-coding that went into it to make a game within itself.

Everything's been said now, and I'll be uploading the link on the bottom of this post... and so now it's time for my final word in this.

The good news about the open source means that people can continue the project. It can extend as far as it needs if anyone wants to pick up on it. The bad news actually has 2 parts: 1. Anyone who opens the map could possibly generate a code... which means codes will have to be reset before it continues any further. 2. Some people may try to continue the project and fail horribly, taking mostly credit for doing nothing. This will not bother me in the least because I have the satisfaction that me and Zync were the true grunts of this project. However, on the brighter side, if they do keep it going successfully, the game will not 100% fall and progression may still be made.

That's all I have to say. Here's what I said. Please not that this also has version 7.10b, the most stable version. All 7.11 edits can be done if needed to 7.10b if the next creator does not want to attempt to fix all the bugs in 7.11.


EDIT: Don't you love the old forum filters? It changed "Jays Jade Jewel" to "Jays Jade Waffle" in my notes detecting the "Jewel" in it... ROFL!

Edit: This map is no longer open source.


Last edited by SinisteRing on Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:39 am

Sigh, I still say Combat Arms is a passing fad. I have seen this coming for a while though. You really aren't someone who is dedicated enough for a project like this and Zync never should have trusted you. The only reason he probably did, is the fact that there was no one else.

Still, you have helped the map while you were here, and for that I thank you. I still think this map is too good to let die but I cannot think of anyone else skilled enough to continue it who would also be willing.

It would be nice if you also uploaded or PMed me your design notes. Those basically have a record of everything that is supposed to be added to the map and could be a great help to the next maker. (If there is one.)
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:11 am

Everyone saw it coming, personally I was just waiting for it to come. However, unlike Dragon, I think SinisteRing WAS the best person to pass it on to. It was the fact that his involvement was TOO much, and it still got no where. Forum Operator + Chieftan + Mapmaker = too dedicated. Being involved too much in anything just...makes you lose interest after a while, and all his points are valid. New RTS's coming out and such... Personaly I don't see it working. I think it should have been passed on to one person, even if everyone didn't agree on it. Because there is going to need a code reset, people will play one persons version, with one code, then try another persons version and their code not work. It's just going to fail with more than one version. This might not happen with a game like DotA, where Euls/Guinsoo line is passed on then 10000 different versions are made till people start to follow IceFrog on account of the save/load and the fact that this game isn't as popular as even the old DotA (~3.7 which I still have Razz).

Anywho, MM&M is dead, lets face it. I enjoyed the ride SinisteRing, and wouldn't have anyone else driving the bus but you. I'll see you around, want to DotA sometime maybe?

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:21 pm

I'm not seeing the dl link, and I think I'ma give sin a month or 2 before hes sick of Combat and back on WC3, hopefully the bugs can be fixed at least.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Dragonheart91 wrote:
Sigh, I still say Combat Arms is a passing fad. I have seen this coming for a while though. You really aren't someone who is dedicated enough for a project like this and Zync never should have trusted you. The only reason he probably did, is the fact that there was no one else.

Still, you have helped the map while you were here, and for that I thank you. I still think this map is too good to let die but I cannot think of anyone else skilled enough to continue it who would also be willing.

It would be nice if you also uploaded or PMed me your design notes. Those basically have a record of everything that is supposed to be added to the map and could be a great help to the next maker. (If there is one.)

Wow, that was pretty rude. MM&M could've been so great too...but basically the day after I came back I could tell it was near death...whenever I tried to host about 2 people joined, both of them dlers. Sad Also, combat arms is a nexon game...It will become VERY horrible soon enough. everyone will have purchaseble items, and you will be raped. Twisted Evil Also, you made too many mods. BnS and JJ were the only good ones...Dragonheart and DD both powertripped way too much, as far as I can see. I'm now officially deleting the MM&M forum off my bookmarks.

Also, I think that when or IF you had finally finished this game..It might've become the most popular game on Battle.net besides DotA, or it would've just failed.

Double also, Diablo 3 and AoC are not RTS, and there's no way I'm going to be getting Starcraft 2 unless it has really good custom maps, or everyone on WC3 leaves.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:38 pm

Ya, because of wow I've no fear of a WC4 coming out and sure starcraft is an awesome game, but it lacks it won't beable to fully kill WC3 because it is all space age, which is something I know that will always send me back to WC3.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:56 pm

i dont freaking care if youre quitting this game is awesome and if everyone leaves MM&M because of this topic then it WILL become dead! just pass it on dont say 'everyone just leave'... i have like ZERO editor experience but i will try to continue it if nobody else will. i will epicly fail but at least i tried.

how many of you have enjoyed MM&M? or have played it from the first few versions? theres a lot of you who have, why give up on it? maybe MM&M just has to enter its third generation... please sensor that link or hackers will use it to get free codes.

MM&M is NOT dead in my opinion. it can die but right now it is not dead. what happened when Zync made a post 'Im permanently quitting MM&M because it is dead,'? if everyone accepted the fact it would have died right there. but sinistering carried on. it would have died thirty versions ago without sin, without hope.


sin, combat arms is fun and i accept the fact that you like it, as i like it too. but for everyone else who hasnt played combat arms, you DONT need to give up on warcraft totally. it still has great games! sin you dont need to kill MM&M and warcraft with it.

MM&M is dead. but it can get CPR if people wish to volunteer... even those who dont know 'cpr' can try... i will if nobody else does.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:16 pm

Quote :
Also, you made too many mods. BnS and JJ were the only good ones...

Thanks Smile

Quote :
Also, I think that when or IF you had finally finished this game..It might've become the most popular game on Battle.net besides DotA, or it would've just failed.

Agreed.

Quote :
i dont freaking care if youre quitting this game is awesome and if everyone leaves MM&M because of this topic then it WILL become dead! just pass it on dont say 'everyone just leave'... i have like ZERO editor experience but i will try to continue it if nobody else will. i will epicly fail but at least i tried.

That's not the point. The point is Zync passed it on to Sin. SinisteRing has made it open. Either very few people will try to make the map, or so many people will that because of code resets and different codes for different makers, there will be so many versions that it will just fail. Otherwise, if they keep the current codes so that one map maker can establish dominance, till the time codes are reset the game will suck because anyone can have max level mages and what not. Also because many people don't have experience, not only in map making but the concept of balance, I expect the map to be ruined. Although I don't think SinisteRing had the best balancing techniques, he did a lot better than I think most people would.

Quote :
how many of you have enjoyed MM&M? or have played it from the first few versions? theres a lot of you who have, why give up on it? maybe MM&M just has to enter its third generation... please sensor that link or hackers will use it to get free codes

I don't know if you were around when DotA was going into it's Allstars stages...however there were literally like 100 versions with different map makers untill people started playing IceFrog's version. The fact is that unlike DotA, this is a save/load game, so it will more than likely fail unless SinisteRing passes it on to a SPECIFIC person. I thought he would pass it on to Pyth, but apparently not.

Quote :
MM&M is NOT dead in my opinion. it can die but right now it is not dead. what happened when Zync made a post 'Im permanently quitting MM&M because it is dead,'? if everyone accepted the fact it would have died right there. but sinistering carried on. it would have died thirty versions ago without sin, without hope.

Again, it's because he passed it on DIRECTLY to one person that it didn't fail. Also it was clear Sin was the best choice, he was the forum operator, a dedicated player, Cheiftan of the clan and was very dedicated to the map in general.
Quote :

MM&M is dead. but it can get CPR if people wish to volunteer... even those who dont know 'cpr' can try... i will if nobody else does.

You can't revive the dead. CPR to a dead person does nothing, if your analogy was MM&M is unconscience or something Rolling Eyes. Lol

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:32 pm

well MM&M was the last hope for me playing WC3 now ima have to go by WoW if this map dies..
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:47 pm

Well. I voted no. There might be a few people who make a lot of mods to the map in general. But its not going to progress much farther in my opinion. But yes, I did have a lot of fun with this map. I hate to see it just die, But I know how boring mapping can get, And thats just with simple GUI triggers.

Also, SIN was the best choice to pass it on too. Not even that many people know VJASS, and SIN was trusted and dedicated. Anyways. I hope someone picks up the map or something. And atleast tries to continue it. In the mean-time, i hope you guys continue posting here, or migrate to the Solar Nexus, Combat Arms forum. D:!

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:05 pm

i think the only reason it died was because of the public peoples..... to complex for there tiny minds to handle... no one wanted to take the time to learn a game that is more than point and click..... i hope to see you guys on the next rts ...
-p.s- my name on every game is always the same- SkapeGoatHiding
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:13 pm

Ah well...I wasn't expecting you to create that, "invincible" protection, anyhow, regardless of my feelings for/against it.

As long as you had a fun time doing it, it was worth it, regardless of how it ended.


P.S. Dragonheart, that was very cruel. If he didn't find it fun anymore, or if he didn't want to play it anymore, he shouldn't have to continue other's fun at the expense of his own. That's his choice, and if he wants to, so be it, be the selfess hero, but if he doesn't, that's jolly well fine, too, because it's his life, and he should be able to do what HE wants to do, not what others want him to do.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:34 pm

Bartimaeus wrote:
P.S. Dragonheart, that was very cruel. If he didn't find it fun anymore, or if he didn't want to play it anymore, he shouldn't have to continue other's fun at the expense of his own. That's his choice, and if he wants to, so be it, be the selfess hero, but if he doesn't, that's jolly well fine, too, because it's his life, and he should be able to do what HE wants to do, not what others want him to do.

Yeah, That was cruel. But people get bashed for not being "dedicated" or "sticking to it".

I do in real life... All the time. Its very annoying. For example, I did martial arts for about 6 months.
But then It got boring. And all my friends wouldnt shut the hell up, And they asked why I quit
like 25 times a day for like 4 months. And then were always asking if I was coming to class, after I said I
had quit 50,000 times. It just got boring. I went through this same ordeal with soccer, and baseball.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:41 pm

Few things on this :


1.) Most importantly, I cant seem to find the map your referring to, please put me in the right direction to getting it. Second you said your doing the 7.10b release please if you could send me the 7.11 version. My email is lynxx420@hotmail.com.

2.) Secondly, every point you lay out is completely valid, as I saw it either you would update the map in the coming two weeks or you wouldnt and that would be the end of it. I was ready for either one and I can honestly say I do not blame you one bit Im actually on your side with this one.

3.) Makign this open source will lead to players making there own versions of this, multiple 7.10c versions will be out there within a week. This is what will crash the game into oblivion. As it stands 7.10b will suffice for now until someone can figure out the maps coding.

4.) Which of course brings me into this next part. I will assuredly attempt to look at this code and figure it all out. If you can get me 7.11 with your sinkhole spell in it then I will be more then happy to attempt to do something with this. However No doubt it will take me a week or two to learn jass, and then another week or two to put out a good stable version.





Now Im not saying that i will take this map on my shoulders and replace sinister. As everyone who visits the channel clan zmmm every day they may have noticed that I myself have not been there nearly as much as usual, I still check in every day and I still interact through the bot alot but that does not substitue the amount of hosting I was doing for this game on a daily basis for a few months there.
Now suffice it to say your probably wondering what has been taking my time away from MMM, well you would probably get a laugh to know that I too have joined the Combat Arms wagon. While I have not told sinister yet (now you know) I was planning to get a good rank then suprise him, but now that he may not return here I suppose now is the appropriate time.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:10 pm

I'm most likely going to attempt in taking up the map...It will be a few weeks until I'll be able to release a 7.11 due to learning curve of gui to vjass, and my programming will very likely use a combination of vjass and gui triggers to get things done. Been a while since I used resurrection signet, casting time might be a bit longer than normal due to it. Also if I am able to take up the gauntlet I WILL need support from the community, so take a break if you want but please check in every so often.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:03 pm

Ive thought about it, Ill probably make a DBC mod sometime. =)

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:34 pm

if you wanted to add content, I've no problem adding it to the mod I'll be working since I'll probably need all the help I can get, if you wanna just screw around with numbers..that will be interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:38 pm

Because I'm totally OCD, I'm going to figure out why the spells i coded for you wouldn't import well Sin. Then I'll see if I can figure out the systems enough and get enough motivation to do anything with it.

I'm going out of town next week, so anything that I do will be before sunday, or after next week.

Srsly though, good luck to everyone and anyone in everything and anything.

Edit: Wow, the timer library looks like a mess, effect over time abilities shouldn't be that complicated Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:06 pm

Quote :
Srsly though, good luck to everyone and anyone in everything and anything.

I want to start WW III, or Holocaust II. Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:11 pm

Jay.J wrote:
Quote :
Srsly though, good luck to everyone and anyone in everything and anything.

I want to start WW III, or Holocaust II. Rolling Eyes
you'll need a lot of luck for that, and I still can't find the link..

edit: nm seems you have to log into old forums and I couldn't so i had to make a new account.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:35 am

We can still keep MM&M alive by playing it. Its does suck that Sin wont be doing anymore but that doesnt mean it is dead. Even thought WC3 is old it is a great game.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:57 am

While I respect your decisions I must disagree with you on one point in particular: That just because WarCraft 3 is old doesn't mean it is dead. Sure, it's mostly flooded with dota fail but people are still playing it. People still play StarCraft Broodwar, and people still play WarCraft 2! I've been telling my dad that WarCraft 2 will be taken down at any moment for years now, and it's still going.

So just because it isn't new, doesn't mean that people won't play it.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:22 am

Shockwave and 180 degree rotatation teleport field are functioning perfectly in the map, I don't know what could have caused the problem you were having Sin.

The problem I'm having now is that I have no idea what you wanted to do with the spell effects as far as scaling, damage, range, elements, etc. Its just code without any direction... haha. Oh well

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:33 am

So it seems that pyth has stepped up, if that is the case I won't bother, but I'll help however I can. I can show you some of my work if you require.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Dead with hope (7/29/08)   Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:38 am

diaster wrote:
So it seems that pyth has stepped up, if that is the case I won't bother, but I'll help however I can. I can show you some of my work if you require.

Actually if you wanted to try to take it up, I'd be more than happy to just be a code monkey for you. I don't know if I'd be able to make the map my own as far as creativity and innovation are concerned, because its just not my vision. But if you just tell me what you need for spells and things, I can whip them up for you in a matter of hours.

Go ahead and share your work anyway if you want praise or criticism Smile

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Old Mages Magic & Mayhem Gamers Forum :: Archives :: State Of The Game :: Mages Magic & Mayhem-
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