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 State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)

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Rhys
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PostSubject: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:55 pm

MM&MA7.20 has finally been released with many changes. Many of you may have overlooked the fact that there are new future plans for MM&M. This is important because some people do not know what i intend to do now, which is continue on with MM&M. I have two projects besides MM&M that i am working on currently. One is a secret bad ass project from Pythagoras and one is a Not so bad ass but equally secretive project by yours truly. In the end that means that MM&M will be a slow project from here on out. I need to clarify that I feel like MM&M is not mine and there for I am simply place holding the map and raising it on a pedestal for Zync to have more credit and me to just be a stand-in puppet master. That being said I made a commitment to the community, and more importantly to myself that i would take care of MM&M and I will continue doing that if not only to honor what I say. However I want it to be known that eventually I will not want to handle MM&M and I will be actively looking for someone qualified enough to take it if they so choose. This could be a year from now or next month, who knows. I will not pass it off to someone I do not feel is comfortable with Jass and being a Project Leader so if you do not know Jass please do not ask for the Map Unprotected. Also you will not get the map if I do not trust you, do not expect me to hand it over simply because you know jass, if you want to become the MM&M Project leader you need to build some trust with me, and that comes with time. I will not let MM&M die due to not having a new version published every month.

Which brings up another point. MM&M is a protected map for a reason and it has nothing to do with cheating. A lot of work went into this Map, MM&M is most likely the most complicated map on B.net and Zync/Pythagoras deserve an infinite amount of credit for there respective inclusions into the map. If I gave out the map unprotected to just anyone then I am slapping Pythagoras and Zync in the face. So Please stop asking for the map unprotected, it has happened a half a dozen times in the past week for some strange reason.

The forums are picking back up slowly, roughly 9 new registrants in the past few weeks which is better then the declining numbers we had for a few months. New blood means new ideas so I have restructured the MM&M Section of this forum for Bugs, Suggestions and general chatting. Anything from before is deleted and honestly I'm glad because with all the suggestions I felt like everyone had there hopes set to much on many things that where simply undo-able. So we start with a clean slate. I know we have moderators for our forums but I will be keeping an eye on the MM&M forums for awhile, I have no issue with other moderators also doing the same but just let it be known that I will be personally viewing everything in that section from here on out multiple times a day. So if you have a suggestion or a bug report I will definitely get it. Also this is the best way to communicate these things with me, I am an extremely forgetful person. Seriously its impossible for me to even remember if I took a shower this morning, that's how bad I am. If you suggest something to me on MSN or in Bnet channel I will not remember it.... Seriously. So if you would like to help form MM&M and input a little bit of your own flare into the culture then the MM&M Section of these Forums is your direct link to that.


MM&M7.21 : Non Bug Issue Major changes so far are as follows :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ice Slide is Being Replaced
Wind/Element will have a new Mspell

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Last edited by Rhys on Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:06 pm

Slow is fine in my opinion. I'll post a short list of what I would like to see in the next version. You are as always free to disagree with me.


#1 Rebalance the towers/NPC heroes so that lowbies can actually kill them. I just started a -an game, and it took until we were level 50+ with level 35 creep upgrades and over 3 hours to end it. Too long imo. So, less hp on both. I would also like to see the damage to towers from aoe spells be increased form 15% to 30%. (or more) It just feels a bit worthless to shoot towers right now. Finally, a new aura on each of the back towers and an ability that uses mana on the Knight would be appreciated. (They don't have to be anything particularly interesting, just something.)

Oh, and a purchasable seige unit would be nice too. Maybe 4 food and 10 gold for it, and it has very high damage with moderate range and decent hp, but slow movement. (And it upgrades with the creeps to get really sick damage against towers late-game.) They could also be added to the spawns every 10 waves or so.


#2 Sorry for nitpicking, but I would like to see the new spells on Water and Earth replaced. (Water spike is ok, but I have a better idea. Earth already has a ranged aoe damage nuke in Earthquake or Granite Grenade that both function similarly.) I already have an idea for a Water ultimate that I feel is good, and then Mana Shield could be put back on [R] where it is sorely missed by many people. (I'll put it in a new thread so as to not clog this one up.) It doesn't need to be done immediately in the next version, but I would like both spells added to the list of things that need eventual remakes. (There are like 10 spells on that list aren't there? I think at least one from every element and 2 from some elements.)


#3 Working on the list of spells that need replacements sounds good. There is a thread somewhere where we voted on what we felt the priority of them was. I think one of the highest priorities was Skeleton Warriors. (And if you recall, I already gave you an idea for a remake for those that you seemed to like.)


#4 I feel that Lightning and Water are still a bit underpowered. Maybe a bit of scaling on Bubble Aura and 400-600 more range on Lightning Strike. (Most [Q] spells have something more than just the generic bolt. Whether it be a slow or a stun or whatever. Lightning has the fact that it's instant, but I think it should also have a range advantage. I see Lightning as the sniping element myself.)


#5 M-spells are always good. Wind/element sounds good, although Holy needs some in the relatively near future. Maybe a Holy/Water M-spell.



7.20 is a good workable version for now, and that's what matters. The few bugs it has are more minor than 7.14. I am starting to like the new elemental gear. It will give some much needed late-game variety. I would also request that over time as each piece of gear gets spell bonuses, that they don't boost any spells already boosted by other gear in the element. We want to promote tough choices and varied builds, not everyone getting 4 items to buff one spell and then spamming it.



P.S. Rhys, you have mine and probably everyone else eternal gratitude for continuing. I really appreciate your dedication...

****Rhys****EDITED PART OUT****Rhys****
No need to be rude towards other people Dragon. I appreciate your nice comments though, they lift my spirit up, just be considerate of other people too.
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:07 pm

1.)

I can start a -An game and if I have a single earth on my team I can have all the towers out of the enemy base within 15 minutes. If I don't have an Earth mage I simply get a pair of Cloud Boots and I can easily let the natural creep waves take out the towers within 15 minutes of game time.

Point being, sure its difficult to take out the towers, its supposed to be. But there are ways to do it extremely easily actually that no one actually considers.

I do agree on a re-balancing on the npc's however.

The siege unit Ill thin about, its been proposed before and I kinda like the idea myself, we will see on this one.



2) Ive heard nothing but good reactions to the new spells from everyone except for you, Id like some secondary confirmation from someone else that they do not like these two spells before I even remotely consider remaking them again. In fact it will probably take a vast majority of the community to get me to want to change these two spells again.

3) Thread got deleted. If it is saved somewhere then tell me where so I can delete it. Id like to start with a clean suggestion slate with everyone considering the current environment as a playing environment and not the prior one. You are welcome to rethink the same suggestions and post them again however Id advise not to get attached to your ideas because I will be picking what I feel belongs in the game and not what everyone feels is completely awesome.


4) Water is significantly stronger in teh new environment. It has a significant increase to its support abilities due to the rewriting of Replenish, the spell is completely overpowered late game. On top of that with the inclusion of water spike there are now 3 Aoe Damaging Spells for water to pick from and one Target damaging/Stun spell. In addition to water taking a very AOE definition to its spells it also has changed the dynamic of a few Mbook strategies from defensive to offensive.
Personally I have noticed that water is much stronger now and useful to many more strategies then before rather then the universal strategy of pick water for mana shield and combo it with anything in the game for a win.

As far as lightning, I buffed the Final Tier Elemental Grade Items to give a larger Power Damage to Lightning Bolt. That and the Lightning Gear I put in recently provides a significant Power Boost.


5) You may have noticed I made 3 Spells in the last release. Well what you dont know is that i made 2 other ones that did not exactly make it into the game because I felt they where corny or did not meet the theme or simply where not up to par with everything else. Pythagoras has shown me many things since I took over this map, and recently this month we started to move into the Special Effects Section of my training, which is why I have become so recently gun ho about making spells. Wind is going to get the next Mspell, maybe Ill make it Wind/Holy who knows, however I do know that no other spell will be made until that one is. I viable suggestion has not been made for the Mspell on these forums so Im still stuck trying to think of one on my own.

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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:06 pm

1) There are a couple of hard counters to towers sure, but the rest of the time they are hard to kill. What about the auras on the back towers and an ability on the Knight?


2) I understand. It's not high priority. I've not heard any good feedback about them yet myself. It's like "Well, it's not bad, but they aren't interesting." Me personally, I think that the Earth one is pretty bad considering that they have a better alternative for both uses. Water Spike is ok though, but I would rather see Geyser made decent and useable rather than a patch of adding in another spell instead.

So, I have some possible suggestions: You could replace Geyser with Water Spike. You could replace Silence with Water Spike. You could make Geyser good and no longer need Water Spike. You could make a better aoe spell for Water on the Ultimate.

All of those options allow you to put Mana Shield back. Which is really what I want. Water Spike is fine, I just don't want to lose Mana Shield in the early game and all of the M-books.


3) I found it and posted in it. I actually still agree with most of the spells that need remakes. Mostly it's just because they don't scale, and that doesn't change with the versions.


4) First of all, I love the use of teh. Secondly, yes Water is much better. Especially late-game with Replenish. Having a third AOE damage spell is fine, in fact I've suggested it in a few places. But, I would rather see Geyser be properly buffed rather than add another one. It's like treating the symptom instead of fixing the problem. Also, I don't see a problem with giving more element combos access to Mana Shield. It allows you to use almost twice as many builds with the element/Water books because you can go Stamina, or you can go Essence and rely on Mana Shield. Personally, I like to mix the two.

More damage to Lightning Strike is one way to do it. But that just makes more people go "OMG THAT'S CHEAT!" when they get hit with like 900 damage on a crit. I would rather have it be a skillful sniping thing and get just as much usefulness in a more interesting way. If you still want to do it with gear, I would still say +200 to it's normal range and then give more bonus range on gear in addition to some damage.


5) That's cool. As long as we get some. If you feel like doing 2 M-spells, do a Holy one next if you don't mind. It's just that Holy has a serious lack of M-spells compared to the other elements. (Especially compared to Dark which has like 3-4 IIRC.)
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:24 pm

1.) Ill look into the npcs. Ive made recent changes (not time wise but version wise) to towers and I do not feel that it is yet time to look at the towers again yet. I dealt with that issue before and I will revisit it again if necessary in a few versions time. Just give the game some time to adjust around it.

2.) Mana Shield is staying at the ultimate spot. I am however extremely interested in your idea to replace geyser or silence with water spike and then make a new spell for the [R] slot. Keep in mind however that I will be buffing water spike to account for a higher spell slot if this does happen. Seriously though that is a good suggestion and i hope you follow through with a thread in the suggestion forum.

4.) Mana Shield is not absent from all Mbooks. Eventually it will be when all m-spells are included. However keep in mind One Mspell already is a Mana Shield type effect (Vapor Shield). There obviously will be a limit to the number of Mana Shield type Mspells, I could honestly see about one or two more being done over the course of all of them being made however we made one recently so lets try to make Mspells for different strategies then that type of strategy and we can revisit this later.
Lightning Strike is incredibly hard to use, I miss every now and then and Im a above average player in my opinion. I feel that it balances play skill for reward better then any skill in MM&M.

5.) Noted

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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:50 pm

Ok, you've addressed everything besides Lightning Strike. It's flat-out weaker than the other [Q] spells. Yes it gets more buffs than the others from gear and stuff, but I don't think that solves it. As far as player skill vs reward, making it longer range enhances that. It would be much harder to use from long range because of things getting in the way and the delay of the game. So, if your actually going to snipe well you have to be EXTREMELY skilled. That is something that Lightning used to and to an extent still does lack when compared to the other elements. Is +100-200 range and +100-200 more on the gear really so much to ask?
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:53 pm

I actually see no reason why it shouldn't have an increased range. If i where you Id post this on the suggestion forum and see if you can get some people to agree with you on it. You have my vote, I just don't know what the range should be at the moment.

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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:37 pm

Alright, I need to make some more suggestion threads then.
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:09 pm

Quote :
2) Ive heard nothing but good reactions to the new spells from everyone except for you, Id like some secondary confirmation from someone else that they do not like these two spells before I even remotely consider remaking them again. In fact it will probably take a vast majority of the community to get me to want to change these two spells again.

I like Water Spike, tough you could replace Geyser with Water Spike in my opinion and add another spell.

I don't think Dust Devil is necessary, and it should be replaced, as earth has enough AoE's already.
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:44 pm

sounds like we need a new water spell then, Ill see what i can dig up.

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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:10 am

I haven't played yet but would torrent work if its not already added?
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:35 am

ATM, Holy has a big fat zero in the M-Spell section

Dust Devil works very well with earth, due to its short cast range. Its only similarity to EQ is that is AoE; seeing as how EQ is channeled and long range, and DD is short range and instant, they dont overlap. EQ=Slow/dmg DD=Blind/dmg. also, having more AOEs isn't a bad thing, look at Fire, I think it has more multi target spells than Earth.

Please do not say that Lightning Strike is UP, it has 850 cast range, and around 1200 effective hit range, not to mention it is in the 2nd highest dmg catagory for dmg (5*pwr) and is very close to instant hit, without any reprecussions. If you learn to use it, it can become very powerful, especially combined with the movement spells and disables that are already in Lightning's arsenal, which make it very possilbe to get into very good position to use the spell. Dragon's proposal of adding 200-400 range possible makes the cast range 1050-1250, dealing 5*pwr or 7*5pwr (without +dmg from gear) for only 135 mana, every 12 or so seconds.
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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:46 pm

Actually I would Lower the Casting Range in order to Increase The Effective Range. Which would make it even harder to cast properly.


So a 650 casting Range for a 1450 Effective Range.


Which grants a 200 Range Overall Increase but forces you to Aim that Full Distance 200 Units Closer to your casting Point which makes it farther from your target point which makes it more difficult to aim properly.

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PostSubject: Re: State Of The Game - 7.20 (1/31/09)   Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:41 pm

I think 800 casting range is fair personally.
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