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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:32 pm

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT AHEAD


After a long discussion, Rhys and I have decided that it'd be best if I were to work on the map again. I'm up for it, yes, but I'm not sure if everyone else is. The thing about it, however, is the fact that I'm still wary about some of the new additions into the game. I plan on quite an overhaul, and might ruin the game for a few of you... but I'm sure that I'll be able to come through with something truly great.

I bet the first thing that comes to mind when you're reading this is "oh, he'll just quit after a week or so and it's going to be right back to Rhys." Hell, I bet the first reply to this thread will be about that specific thing. Well, I can't assure anyone that I'm going to stick to it, of course, but I'm going to give it my best shot. I gave up on MM&M a while ago, but now that I see what Rhys has recently done, I think it has a newfound potential to be a game that many people would like to play. I'll get into details about exactly what those things are later, but for now, let's stick to what I plan to do over the next week or so, just in case anyone has to comment upon such a thing.

  • Finish removing about 6,500 or so more doodads. (Currently at 5000)
  • Start to remove the BJ functions from the code.
  • Cut off any excess code found.
  • Get all the older To-Do's into the new To-Do if they haven't been changed. Clean up the To-Do list.


Now to get into more detail about each:

1. Finish removing about 6,500 or so more doodads.
Rhys has remade the entire terrain. Everything. The terrain no longer consists of many islands, but is now a fully-connected map all around with an ocean at the middle bottom with the AoS island inside it. However, as an effect of Rhys's terraining, he added about 10,000 trees/doodads. This has increased the time it takes to save the map from what I remember to be about 20 seconds maximum to a 1 minute minimum. This also increased the loading time by quite a bit. So my first course of action is to drop an atomic bomb on the entire terrain and basically wipe out almost all the trees he had put. Most of them were okay or even good, but the load time and save time increase simply isn't worth it. Currently, I've removed about 5,000, or 1/2, of the amount of doodads that Rhys added from this expedition.

2. Start to remove the BJ functions from the code.
For those of you who don't know what BJ function are, they're basically the exact same thing as a normal function, except they just call another function with no change. It's an extra call. Some are simply swapped arguments, while others do a small function before the call. These are terrible things to have in the map and slow it down by milliseconds each. I'm going to have to remove almost all that I can find as they not only bother me, but I'm sure that it'd help the map in the long run anyways.

3. Cut off any excess code found.
In my discussion with Rhys, he brought up the fact that Rejuvenation, the nature spell, was put under earth by mistake. I explained that it wasn't my fault, and that it was there when the map was sent to me (so I'm assuming it was Zync). Thing is, that spell is no longer in use, and taking up a very small amount of data in the map. So the 3rd step in my process is to remove such things so that the map size can be smaller. Not that big of a deal, really, but it's a nice way to clean things up.

4. Get all the older To-Do's into the new To-Do if they haven't been changed. Clean up the To-Do list.
This is just a long way of saying "I need to catch up." Basically, I'm going to have to review the map and check my old To-Do lists and see if anything was actually done. If it is, then I remove it fully. If not, I add it to my To-Do list for the future. It should help organize a few things, and the actual To-Do list is still posted either in the Mages Magic & Mayhem forum or has been tossed somewhere into the Archives.

I know this is really a wall of text, but I need to continue. I need to bring up some of the gameplay-related issues that I'm sure you're wanting to hear about. With a new (yet old) developer brought back into the fold, there's sure to be some drastic changes. My next course of action is to address those things as well. These are not written in stone, and I will accept debate about it, so long as you place it in the appropriate forum.

  • Remove Multibooks.
  • Remove Potions.
  • Make -annsct the default game mode.
  • Make a new -lm (Load Mode) mode.
  • Add bosses.


And again, into the details:

1. Remove Multibooks
Everyone should know by now that I oppose multibooks. I implemented them, yes, and I thought I'd never oppose them. However, I do, and a very strong reason why is that it's nigh impossible to balance them. Even with extremely high balance, counters would be non-existant. It'd simply be a battle of a different style. By removing multibooks and instead just making a spell for each combo, we lose the originality of spell combinations within each book, but we still keep the synergy addition of those elements. This also allows for faster implementation of new elements, a finer scale of balance, a more focused and synergized spell, more time to rework spells, and overall just a much more tidy and simplistic game.

2. Remove Potions
I know this is going to be contested. I simply believe that potions give little to Mages Magic & Mayhem and that the map would do better without them.

3. Make -annsct the default game mode
This is to make it basically a normal AoS unless people like the RPG part of it. I mean, not many people like the RPG part of it right now, and that's why it's rarely played. By making it a normal AoS to start with and giving the host the OPTION to make it into an AoS/RPG, then we solve two problems. One, new players have a chance to try the entire map with the default game mode and are not intimidated by those with load codes. Two, people who do want to RPG and do things involving the RPG aspect still have that option.

4. Make a new -lm (Load Mode) mode
This is explained above, but I like the save/load part of MM&M, and wish to keep such a thing an option for those who want it.

5. Add Bosses
Everyone probably wants this to happen. It's quite self-explanatory. The thing I need to figure out though is how drops are going to be done, because % chance sucks ass.

I think I've covered almost everything. Any questions or comments about this will be responded to.


Last edited by SinisteRing on Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:07 pm

well...I have one thing to ask sin before you remove the m-books. Could you perhaps brainstorm with us so we can maybe come up with another method of implementation instead of scraping the idea in general? I mean I can agree that they are difficult to balance and need a change, but the idea of combining your mastery of 2 element is something I believe should be included in the gameplay.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:16 pm

diaster wrote:
I mean I can agree that they are difficult to balance and need a change, but the idea of combining your mastery of 2 element is something I believe should be included in the gameplay.

I believe he is keeping M-spells, but removing M-books. M-books are IMPOSSIBLE to imbalance. Adding one new spell for every combo is still hard, but not as much. Correct me if I'm wrong.

SinisteRing wrote:
By removing multibooks and instead just making a spell for each combo, we lose the originality of spell combinations within each book, but we still keep the synergy addition of those elements.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:27 pm

I always liked M-Books, don't see any reason to remove them.

Why change the default game mode? If you can't save or load what's the point of bosses or quests? Then it's just another one of those DOTA clones i never play (I don't play DOTA either).

Everything else i like. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:29 pm

Belial wrote:
Why change the default game mode? If you can't save or load what's the point of bosses or quests? Then it's just another one of those DOTA clones i never play (I don't play DOTA either).
I gave my reasons. Disprove them or challenge them before asking for more reasons.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:34 pm

Belial wrote:
I always liked M-Books, don't see any reason to remove them.

The ones he listed? Such as they're impossible to ever balance? They take long to implement, and the M-spells are still being kept?

Belial wrote:
Why change the default game mode? If you can't save or load what's the point of bosses or quests? Then it's just another one of those DOTA clones i never play (I don't play DOTA either).

Because then noobs have the chance to play the game in its entirety deciding if they enjoy the game or not, since the main reason the fan base dropped for MM&M was because the first few levels were boring as hell. Until you got a level 62 mage, it was just work really. You still have the option of Save/Load. Bosses would be more interactive like Impossible Bosses, so they would still be fun, and you still HAVE a save/load version for them. Same with quests. It still exists, just by making loading an option instead of main, you let noobs experience the game. I think this might help MM&M grow.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:59 pm

So, quick thought:

Instead of making every game into a "no save" can you just make it a "no load" with uber high experience and gold rates? I feel that would let noobs both experience the map and have something to look forward to another time.

Speed up the game play but let people save would be my request.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:05 pm

Then it's a huge problem when you have a load game?

With uber high EXP rates, then how are you going to have have fair teams....A level one is going to get to like level 30-40, especially if a 62 dies so the team that STARTED with the loader is going to lose...Unless you can ONLY load in a loading game...But then it just makes it so having a mage isn't worth that much.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:06 pm

Jay.J wrote:
Belial wrote:
I always liked M-Books, don't see any reason to remove them.

The ones he listed? Such as they're impossible to ever balance? They take long to implement, and the M-spells are still being kept?

Belial wrote:
Why change the default game mode? If you can't save or load what's the point of bosses or quests? Then it's just another one of those DOTA clones i never play (I don't play DOTA either).

Because then noobs have the chance to play the game in its entirety deciding if they enjoy the game or not, since the main reason the fan base dropped for MM&M was because the first few levels were boring as hell. Until you got a level 62 mage, it was just work really. You still have the option of Save/Load. Bosses would be more interactive like Impossible Bosses, so they would still be fun, and you still HAVE a save/load version for them. Same with quests. It still exists, just by making loading an option instead of main, you let noobs experience the game. I think this might help MM&M grow.

I didn't really read all that in the first post, a bit too long for me. But i never saw any problems with the M-Books.

I always enjoyed my first levels, annoying the level 62's is great fun. I just don't want MM&M to become another DOTA map, then i don't have a reason not to uninstall Warcraft III.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:43 pm

SinisteRing wrote:

1. Remove Multibooks
Everyone should know by now that I oppose multibooks. I implemented them, yes, and I thought I'd never oppose them. However, I do, and a very strong reason why is that it's nigh impossible to balance them. Even with extremely high balance, counters would be non-existant. It'd simply be a battle of a different style. By removing multibooks and instead just making a spell for each combo, we lose the originality of spell combinations within each book, but we still keep the synergy addition of those elements. This also allows for faster implementation of new elements, a finer scale of balance, a more focused and synergized spell, more time to rework spells, and overall just a much more tidy and simplistic game.

This meaning no more MBooks but yes MSpells? Would this overwrite the current the ultimate in a book if researched or would it add a different button outside the book itself?

SinisteRing wrote:

3. Make -annsct the default game mode
This is to make it basically a normal AoS unless people like the RPG part of it. I mean, not many people like the RPG part of it right now, and that's why it's rarely played. By making it a normal AoS to start with and giving the host the OPTION to make it into an AoS/RPG, then we solve two problems. One, new players have a chance to try the entire map with the default game mode and are not intimidated by those with load codes. Two, people who do want to RPG and do things involving the RPG aspect still have that option.

This meaning it functions like any other AoS in that all mages start at level one, on the team they were listed under in the wait room, and no saving?

SinisteRing wrote:
4. Make a new -lm (Load Mode) mode
This is explained above, but I like the save/load part of MM&M, and wish to keep such a thing an option for those who want it.

Same as it is now?
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:10 pm

I do not want the impression of my not being involved in this given to everyone. I am still very much involved in every aspect of what is going on and so is Pyth.

Sin, Pyth and myself (and also including jay.j) all sat down in a conference and discussed everything posted here days ago and then some, this is not something that just randomly happened because sin has a whim, it is a calculated issue that we as the three map makers of MMM are deciding to do and Sinister has proven himself to us all that he is worth the investment, if that is not enough for you then tough shit its enough for us.

In the past Pyth has always taken a back seat to publicity and the community and now I will do the same, Pyth has helped me tremendously with MMM from the first day until even today and we both will be supporting Sin from behind the curtains. I am currently brainstorming the remaining two spells to add in for nature and I have plenty of time as I fully expect this next release to be roughly a month away, that time frame in itself is not a guarantee as well.

MMM 8.0 will have a crap ton of changes, some players who tested with me with what I have done roughly a month ago stated simply that it is practically an entirely new game with what I have done alone in the past few months with MM&M (and do not kid yourself I have continued to work on MM&M even after I stated that I required a break, I still open it open weekly and work on it). Sinister's main priorities are to streamline the increased Load time and the reduced Frame Rate that i gave MMM over the past few months in my attempt to make the game bigger and better and from what i can tell he is doing an exceptional job at countering the by product of what I have done. In addition to polishing many aspects of the game he has many more changes in store that the Three of us plan on getting done before the next Release. I hope everyone realizes the drastic change about to occur to MMM and there is simply no room to argue about small things like if you liked Mbooks or not. Prepare for a much larger and different game to be released and you really have no option but to wait and see what happens, sin's word is fairly ironclad because everything he plans has been run by everyone involved in making the map, his words are our words.

Sinister is going to be taking the main seat for MM&M and everyone currently involved in the MM&M process has complete trust in what he is doing including the removal of the Mbooks, yes they are history and I wish I had the strength to remove them a long time ago. Now that MM&M has been stale for a few months and the game has been drastically changed as it is in its current form Sin has a very unique chance to remaking the game entirely and we all back his new vision on where it will go. If you are someone who says that he will drop it like a brick in a week well that's fine you can say whatever you want but I highly expect you to publicly apologize to Sinister when you are proven wrong at the release of 8.0, so cast your stones now but realize that I am still here to catch them before they hit Sinister and I will throw them back (metaphorically speaking of course I'm not going to go around hunting down where you live and start pelting you with rocks, except maybe Dragon...).

In any event I am probably the most excited person here on this issue, MM&M has always been my baby since the moment I took it I have been obsessed with it. I want everyone to know right from me that I have a very specific job in this new era of MMM about to come out and that is Balance (on top of many of the same things I have already been doing this is going to be my main focus from now on). Ya I know Diaster is going to cry about this but tough luck, Sinister and I have already agreed that no matter what happens I will be balancing everything, if you don't like what happens then I guess I have done my job well because while yes the game can be great and fun if you can just instantly pop in kill everything then whatever happens after that who cares, you ruin the game for everyone else but yourself when things like that happen, I am a a map maker who has a huge bias towards Balance and I will always continue to make the game more balanced with every version that is released, I have no issues with going against the community ever, I have proven that time and time again and I don't care if your favorite tactics are destroyed or not, you need to find new ones in the event that you can no longer use the most obvious broken strategies. So just to recap if you have something to cry about as far as new balance changes are concerned then don't cry to sin, cry to me. Which of course i wont listen to you so cry to yourself as it may help you sleep better when someone is listening to you.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:11 pm

Until you take out the hours of grinding involved in this game to make it even somewhat fun, I refuse to play.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:19 pm

well that's actually been taken care of already bart, hence the drastic changes already been done that I stated.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:23 pm

Rhys wrote:
well that's actually been taken care of already bart, hence the drastic changes already been done that I stated.

tl;dr please geek
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:24 pm

I never wanted the M-books and was opposed to them being put into the map. I assumed we would just get an added M-spell on our mage replacing the icon that disappears when you choose your second element. However, since their implementation I have grown to like them. I can definitely see the logic behind removing them, especially since they ARE impossible to balance, but I will miss them some.

I liked the low level potions for people to use in the beginning to help the game move along faster. But, what about just allowing each person to use ONE permanent potion with a longish cooldown. (And regeneration over time.) Like either a speed buff potion, an hp regen over 10 seconds potion, or a mana regen over 20 seconds potion. (All combat consumable.) At higher levels I wouldn't mind some powerful but unique potions, but they shouldn't be purchasable until level 62 and only in games where potions are turned on. (So in addition to the -np command, there would be a -sp command to add the Special Potions to the game.) In summary, remake the potions but don't remove them. They can be one more minor strategic element that especially helps lowbies.

I don't really like the idea of -anns as the default mode. Making the teams be whatever the lobby is unless people load is a good idea, and disallowing loading in the default mode is fine too. But, I don't like losing the ability to save. People should play their first game in all new mode, but they should then go host and turn loading on so they can continue with the character they created. I think THAT is the best route for the map to grow.

Load Mode as you put it should still be the most played mode after the first introduction game. Default would be -an to get more players, you could play -anns if you wanted the DoTA crowd, and -lm would be the mode for most of the more experienced players.


Lastly, I do not trust you. Your probably going to make a horrible mess of things, do a ton of balance changes that I hate and disagree with, and then leave us suddenly because the pressure is too much. I would really like Rhys to still be a fall-back person before we do this unholy changing of hands.


Edit: Didn't read the previous 3 posts yet, so I'm doing that now.

Edit #2: Ok, so I read Rhys big post and stuff. I still don't trust SinisteRing and fully expect him to drop the map within a month. (Most likely just before 8.0 is done.) However, it sounds like Rhys is still here to help pick up the pieces, so it should be ok. I'm VERY glad that Rhys will be doing the balancing instead of SinisteRing, as I like his balancing much better. I see four major priorities to work on in the near future.

#1 Improve the noob friendlyness. You seem to already be doing this. That's good.
#2 Balance the individual elements and remake the spells that need it. This is very high priority IMO, as it can easily ruin the game otherwise.
#3 FINISH THE DANG M-SPELLS! Geez, making a whole new element means adding a ton more M-spells and we already don't have enough. Please, get them done even if they suck and need to be remade later.
#4 Improve the RPG side with cool Impossible Bosses style stuff.


Good luck everyone, but I don't have much hope.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:32 pm

Since you didn't read my post dragon you made a ton of claims that i addressed already.

And bart what does tl dr mean?

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:33 pm

Rhys wrote:
Since you didn't read my post dragon you made a ton of claims that i addressed already.

And bart what does tl dr mean?

Too long; didn't read, XD lol!
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:51 am

No no no... see from forever ago with the experience... I wanted to know why "no save" would be the new gameplay mode. I think it should be "no load" with high experience so that a mage *CAN* be saved after all that work of building it up is done. THEN, you know, LATER, like IN ANOTHER NEW GAME (are the capitals getting through?) people can use the higher level mages (i.e. in controlled team games or in tournament games).

Okay so here's nihilism: playing a game over and over where it takes for fucking ever to level up a mage and then getting no benefit from it... GRINDING becomes the entire point of the game if it is ALWAYS all new NO SAVE.

Are you getting it?

So, why not make it like the old system of All New where experience was higher and so was money?

I would hate to see MM&M become focused purely on grinding (ANNS I'm looking at you!).

I.e. the fun part of MM&M for me is launching a fireball and watching all the footies fall in a big explosion. Or walking into a crowd and unleashing an infernal wave of fire nova. Beauty in destruction thy name is fire.

You can't do that in ANNS. The units upgrade so fast that by the time you have the power to destroy anything in 1 hit in a normal game, they've leveled to the point that it's a pin prick or might as well be.

Ya get it?

Please let me know you at least understand (not agree with) the point I'm making. People not understanding a damn thing has been getting on my nerves as of late.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:50 am

Quote :
I.e. the fun part of MM&M for me is launching a fireball and watching all the footies fall in a big explosion. Or walking into a crowd and unleashing an infernal wave of fire nova. Beauty in destruction thy name is fire.

You can't do that in ANNS. The units upgrade so fast that by the time you have the power to destroy anything in 1 hit in a normal game, they've leveled to the point that it's a pin prick or might as well be.

issues both that have been dealt with. although not completely we do need to run some tests to get the right speed down but that has been something that i personally was working on months ago.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:58 am

The point is, to maximize the experience of new people we don't want to show them another lame and mediocre dota clone. (Which is basically what -anns is. It doesn't even stack up to dota really.) Starting with an even playing field and bonus exp by having -an be the default mode is fine. But, you have to allow them to save at the end so they feel like their effort that game was worth something and so that the addiction to the RPG side kicks in.

-anns is a terrible dota clone no matter how good we make it.
-lm can be rough for new people learning the game.
-an allows new people to experience the game more quickly, keeps the playing field level to alleviate any unfairness, and gives them a reason to keep coming back and playing through the RPG side.

Do you see?
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:12 am

anns isn't a dota clone, its a aos. Dota wasn't the first aos (which is why the branch of gameplay is called aos and not dota) MMM even in anns is a completely unique aos, with the only true similarity between it and dota being you run down a lane to fight opponents, from there it is completely different.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:36 pm

I understand Aqua....

What is it RIGHT now. Anyone who hosts....already has a mage. Otherwise they're going to host -an so they can get the boosted EXP, and in doing so can get to level 40 (I know I did, and that's without even doing a single quest since I didn't have time). Now with the boosted EXP to all modes...you could probably get to 62, especially if you're questing as well in one game which means that you just play one game to start playing -lm.

It's not grinding like you think it is for -anns, because it's even more sped up than before. That was my problem too....I didn't particularly like grinding and really just wanted a max level mage where I could go BOOM, you're dead, so are your creeps and now I'm going to eat this paladin.

What making -anns the new default mode is allow people who are new to go through all the stages of the game in one play through. Allowing them to decide if they like the game in its entirety or not. Making them able to save, while still being able to go through all stages of the game makes little sense because then you just have a maxed mage in one game. After playing ONE OR TWO games of -anns, you then realize you can "skip" the beginning part of the game and play "Save mode" or whatever, and then as such play just the high level parts of the game. If it's made with your way of, being able to save in any game....then they DON'T experience the game in it's entirety. Just think what it is now. It IS pretty much already "No load" as a default mode because you just play -an if you're hosting and need a new mage, otherwise you just load your mage.

Your main frustration, as I see it - is that the beginning part of the game sucks. And it does. What's trying to be done is make the beginning part of the game...NOT suck so that the game can be enjoyed as a whole. And even then, it introduces people to the game completely so that they can then CHOOSE to play a loading mode.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:29 pm

I don't think you can fathom how terrible the picture you just painted sounds Jay. Woo for turning MM&M into another generic aos where no one loads of saves.

There is nothing wrong with -an mode. In a long game you can almost max out, and the gameplay goes fast enough that new people don't get bored. It has the benefits of -anns AND brings people back for more like -lm.
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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:33 pm

You missed the point. That's what it is NOW.

If you're hosting you have a mage and are going to host a loading game anyway...
Or you don't and host -an.

Either way it doesn't give new people the whole picture.

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PostSubject: Re: State of the Game - Reborn   Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:34 pm

Yes, it really does. -anns is what doesn't give the whole picture. It cuts out the whole rpg aspect and gives you a stripped down aos game that doesn't even live up to the standards of most aos. If you want the aos to be the primary game mode, then you need to redo the entire game from the top to make it a FUN aos. MM&M is not designed for aos gameplay in general and just doesn't work well that way.
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