Discussion on 7.13 Changelog

What happened to running the changelog by a few of us before releasing the version. I have a couple of HUGE objections and many more minor ones.

Right off, the mana fountain was fine. What you have done to it now is revert it to what it was previously. This is very very bad. Combat will once again focus on the mana fountain, and Lightning just got a huge buff from this. Sigh, I think it was perfect the way it was. I also believe Jay and other experienced players who remember when the fountain restored alot will agree with me about this change. (About the Lightning buff, it is two-fold. Crack lets them access the fountain more easily, and the increased mana regen lets them spam TS and/or elementals much more efficiently as well.)

About Vapor Shield, why is it based on HP? A Water/Fire mage most likely has huge mana, and I think basing it off of 30% mana instead of 25% hp would make more sense.

Your changes didn't fix Sleep or Raise Dead, but they are a step in the right direction. Also, Dark in general seems to have been changed for the better. (Although I hate to admit it, seeing as how this nerfs me.)

Why did you mess with Burn? I think it was underpowered if anything.

Why in the hell did you mess with Ice? It is like you just arbitrarily screwed with stuff in Ice. I don't really see any improvement or balance coming from those changes. Frostbite should have been made to deal .3/.6/1*power per 4 seconds instead of just leaving it at the stupid way it is but making it tiered. On the upside, I guess you didn't harm anything.

Combat consumable mana potion is a bad thing. Higher level games are just going to have those active all the time once again, and it nerfs any mage who is good at mana regeneration. (I.E. me and any Water mage. I think Water is underpowered right now anyway, and you just totally killed their use.) The health regeneration potions make Light weaker too, and I think it was fine. I don't know about other people, but I am going to suggest people use -NP mode from now on.

You only gave two towers out of 4 auras, and they are the same aura on both towers. It is a step in the right direction, but I think the damage reduction wasn't quite enough and each of the four towers should have a different aura IMO.

Also, I still think that we should spawn with more like 50-80% mana to buff mana regenerating people a little more and give a little more punishment for dying.


Sorry about being so harsh, and I really appreciate the work your doing. But, I feel that most of these things should have just been discussed before being implemented.

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What happened to running the changelog by a few of us before releasing the version. I have a couple of HUGE objections and many more minor ones.

Sent it to Jay.J, Diaster, DarkDjinn and AquaAscension, This is the list of people I trust that will give me non biased honest opinions, on top of this they are in some way shape or form moderators and controllers of the MM&M community. Jay.J who is at the top of said list responded to me first that he felt the changes where ok, there for the map was ready to release without anyones said judgment besides the prior 4 people mentioned to be passed upon the map.

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Right off, the mana fountain was fine. What you have done to it now is revert it to what it was previously. This is very very bad. Combat will once again focus on the mana fountain, and Lightning just got a huge buff from this. Sigh, I think it was perfect the way it was. I also believe Jay and other experienced players who remember when the fountain restored alot will agree with me about this change. (About the Lightning buff, it is two-fold. Crack lets them access the fountain more easily, and the increased mana regen lets them spam TS and/or elementals much more efficiently as well.)

if anything lower it to 0.5% mana regenerated but I highly doubt I will ever go back to 1.5 per second. That was epically slow and there was no reason to go to middle. Over the next few releases we can stabilize what exactly it should be at, however the days of it doing a negligible amount of mana regeneration are far gone.

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About Vapor Shield, why is it based on HP? A Water/Fire mage most likely has huge mana, and I think basing it off of 30% mana instead of 25% hp would make more sense.

Everyone Seems to think that this spell was made to fit into the current fire/water mage build.... Im sorry to everyone who thinks that but I will never implement a spell that is intended to help a specific strategy.

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Why did you mess with Burn? I think it was underpowered if anything.

I too felt it was underpowered, which is why last version I buffed it .2 base power, and after many tests it had to be brought back down, you may think burn is underpowered but its not. Its exactly where it should be now. Which is where it was before.

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Why in the hell did you mess with Ice? It is like you just arbitrarily screwed with stuff in Ice. I don't really see any improvement or balance coming from those changes. Frostbite should have been made to deal .3/.6/1*power per 4 seconds instead of just leaving it at the stupid way it is but making it tiered. On the upside, I guess you didn't harm anything.

FrostBite was a speciel request from an unnamed person that I obliged too because I agreed with it. The orb is now mirrored to the Fire Orb in cost which was the intention. In order to justify the increase in mana to the ice orb its power is increased by .75, and no I didnt harm anything in ice, in fact I balanced it out slightly for ANNS mode.

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Combat consumable mana potion is a bad thing. Higher level games are just going to have those active all the time once again, and it nerfs any mage who is good at mana regeneration. (I.E. me and any Water mage. I think Water is underpowered right now anyway, and you just totally killed their use.) The health regeneration potions make Light weaker too, and I think it was fine. I don't know about other people, but I am going to suggest people use -NP mode from now on.

I believe thats exactly what -NP is for.
-NM = Play with the Big Boys

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You only gave two towers out of 4 auras, and they are the same aura on both towers. It is a step in the right direction, but I think the damage reduction wasn't quite enough and each of the four towers should have a different aura IMO.

Step one, Front towers have an aura, step two back towers have an aura..... we will see where it goes after that.

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Also, I still think that we should spawn with more like 50-80% mana to buff mana regenerating people a little more and give a little more punishment for dying.

Doubtful of this happening

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Right off, the mana fountain was fine. What you have done to it now is revert it to what it was previously. This is very very bad. Combat will once again focus on the mana fountain, and Lightning just got a huge buff from this. Sigh, I think it was perfect the way it was. I also believe Jay and other experienced players who remember when the fountain restored alot will agree with me about this change. (About the Lightning buff, it is two-fold. Crack lets them access the fountain more easily, and the increased mana regen lets them spam TS and/or elementals much more efficiently as well.)

I saw it, but didn't notice it or think much of it but now that I think of it, Hmm... How much more is that regening now, like 6-11 on an average level 62 mage...That IS a huge jump. From previous versions, this number is WAY to high. It should definately be lowered. Though, I don't really think it particularly buffs Lightning more than it buffs, say Wind or Earth, or other elements without mana regen on them. And atleast when I use an Earth mage, I got blink boots + Wind has lots of mobility skills to get in as well, though I do agree it should be a lot less regen, don't point out Lightning when it's not just it.

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Your changes didn't fix Sleep or Raise Dead, but they are a step in the right direction. Also, Dark in general seems to have been changed for the better. (Although I hate to admit it, seeing as how this nerfs me.)

It's been tested in games, Sleep is a LOT better. Using it on preists and rangers is very useful. Raise Dead still sucks, I think it's worse actually because you have to have 3 corpses now, so it sucks for early questing.

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Why in the hell did you mess with Ice? It is like you just arbitrarily screwed with stuff in Ice. I don't really see any improvement or balance coming from those changes. Frostbite should have been made to deal .3/.6/1*power per 4 seconds instead of just leaving it at the stupid way it is but making it tiered. On the upside, I guess you didn't harm anything.

You'll didn't really notice the difference when I was playing the test version and I SPAM Icy Orb like hell. Like Crack + Orb + Icy, Swap Kiss + Icy etc. Although, those who already got a maxed frostbite are now down 8 SP and don't have a maxed Frostbite anymore.

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Combat consumable mana potion is a bad thing. Higher level games are just going to have those active all the time once again, and it nerfs any mage who is good at mana regeneration. (I.E. me and any Water mage. I think Water is underpowered right now anyway, and you just totally killed their use.) The health regeneration potions make Light weaker too, and I think it was fine. I don't know about other people, but I am going to suggest people use -NP mode from now on

They cost 6 gold in the test game, and it was a 62 game, no one touched them. I don't know if this was changed.

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You only gave two towers out of 4 auras, and they are the same aura on both towers. It is a step in the right direction, but I think the damage reduction wasn't quite enough and each of the four towers should have a different aura IMO.

Towers are hella strong. They can 3-4 shot a new mage. It's already impossible unless you're an earth mage to down them at low levels. They take forever to end. Arcane should have a tower killing spell, then buff towers more for high level games.

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Also, I still think that we should spawn with more like 50-80% mana to buff mana regenerating people a little more and give a little more punishment for dying.

Full agreement.

can the next things that are added be a war end function and short mode please? I really think they should be top priority.

Okay, it's going to sound as if I'm starting a flame war and I swear that this is not my intention at all. However, Dragon you are making leaps in logic that could cross the atlantic in a single bound. Honestly, the thing that I'm more than a little sick of in this community is the constant bickering about bear that hasn't even been implemented yet. I mean you guys act like 7.13 COMPLETELY replaces all other versions entirely. NO. IT. DOES. NOT. If you have an issue with the version, try posting in a way that doesn't make you sound like you have a "I'm the only correct person evar" complex and play the previous version of the map. The saves/loads still work.

That being said, yes, there certainly will be some balancing going on. It's changeable. It's fixable... the map isn't immutable.

As for the fountain... what is the lowest costing effective spell? Let's say ice bolt with 85 mana. Well, with a max of 800 mana it would take 9 seconds (1%/sec) (though slightly less with item regen etc.) to charge from 0 to the required amount. That's a hell of a long time to be running around dodging other spells. Yes, it may make the fountain a strategic point to control but that's a GOOD thing. The game has little strategy as it is now. It has aim and luck.

The potions... let's face it, unless your mage is maxed 6 gold for 450 HP/MP is a waste. It's an utter waste. And why say that it'll nerf both holy and water? That's a huge leap. I'd rather have a holy mage than a potion. And think about it. Seriously, think about it. 10 HP/MP a second for six gold is a pittance compared to free 1k+ healing from a holy mage and worthless when compared to 4 MP/sec from water for free.

I slightly dislike the changes to ice and dark, but guess why. Because I'm a selfish bastard and I have a dark/ice mage that I will now have to adapt in order to compensate for the changes. No one is completely unbiased.

I look forward to testing out the map with the changes and seeing what I think of it. My guess is that you went off on this epic tirade after reading the changelog, Dragon. Informed, no. Opinionated, yes.

No testing for the reality of the situation, in my book = epic fail.

I know that my words are somewhat hypocritical, and I apologize for that. I'm also sorry if I may offend anyone, it is not my intention. At the moment, however, I'll just say yay for a new version. Things will be changed no doubt... when they need to be.

That's my tirade...

potions are fine imo, fountain though is 2 much. My water mage pwned so hard just standing next to it.

Sorry I didn't respond to the changelog.

1. I have been out alot
2. Time Zone difference.

Sorry.

I don't mind you at all Aqua. Also, I apologize if I came off a little too strong.

Really the only part of the changelog that I dislike is the fountain increase.

Also, I didn't know I had dropped off of the list of "trusted people." Had I known that, I wouldn't have commented. (Previously you said you were sending it to all shamans and moderators, and I'm still a shaman.)

Saying you're sorry for not posting to the changelog makes me laugh, because it just seems like a +1 post which you're extremly against. You didn't even comment on the changelog or discussion .

I was just thinking, and I have alot more to say.

Ok, first of all I want to point out that not only is your post not flame Aqua, it is in fact helpful. If you see a failure in my logic or me making a mistake, feel free to say something. That holds true for everyone here. (Except SinisteRing, you probably don't want to insult him.) People like Jay and Dark are going to appreciate your insight most likely in a similar way to me.

The one thing I do resent though is the fact that you waited until I wasn't a moderator anymore to post that. If you have a problem with me, say something. Me being a moderator should not stop you, it should in fact encourage you. As long as I am not corrupt, I should take criticism more seriously if I am in a position of power. (The point is kind of moot in my case, but Jay and Dark shouldn't be too corrupt to accept criticism.)

Although, you did make one mistake. If you really think something is flame, send it in a PM. That is basically what they are for.

Oh, and finally, I would like to hear exactly which parts of my post you found biased. The only nerfs I agreed with were the ones that nerfed me. What part of that is biased? (For the record, I have only been using Dark and Water lately, and I am not upset in any way because of your post.)


@Rhys: You said your not going to make M-spells with synergy, but I think you should make the synergy of them scale with how good their book is. For instance, if you were making a Lightning/Fire M-spells, it should have lousy or almost no synergy. But if you are making a Wind/Water M-spell, it should have amazing synergy to make up for the suckie M-book. That is just my opinion, but it would also fit the trend of the previous M-spells. I do think that Vapor Shield sounds like an amusing spell, but Fire/Water isn't a good enough book to deserve a bad synergy M-spell in my opinion. Again, thank you for your help as the maker. I doubt you can hear that enough. I also want to try and point out that you shouldn't take us too seriously or get stressed. It is indeed just a game, and minor balancing is definitely not worth stressing over.


@People: Yeah, I'm tired of this. Stop treating me like second class all of the sudden. SinisteRing was rude to the map and to me. I got angry and insulted him, I made the mistake of doing that over the forum. I apologize for that, SinisteRing demotes me for insulting him, and now everyone treats me like I'm some criminal. My gosh, SinisteRing is not some godlike deity you need to worship. Considering that he left, I don't think you should still be following him blindly. If you fear him, say something instead of trying to secretly support him by bullying me. If you have a problem with me, say something to my face and let's work it out. I dislike these subtle insult wars that are so commonplace on forums. (And you also have me at an unfair disadvantage right now where I can't fight back.)

To clarify: the slightest insult on message boards in general tends to turn into a war; hence my flame warning.

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The one thing I do resent though is the fact that you waited until I wasn't a moderator anymore to post that

Though it may seem that way, and I'll admit, my timing is somewhat circumspect, my post would not have changed with regard to you, Dragon, whether or not you have moderator power. Indeed, I have probably the least message board experience out of all of us hence the structure/warnings of my post.

The topic is Discussion on 7.13 Changelog... Therefore, I'd like to say that the log took an Epic step forward as for its user friendliness and its helpfulness. It looks great.

Yeah, Rhys is doing an excellent job of organizing the log. Like I said though, they are good changes except that I disagree with the fountain.

And to clarify, some of the things I complained about are because they are treating the symptom not the problem. The change to Raise Dead increases it's usefulness slightly, but it doesn't fix the fact that it is a static non-scaling ability with no uniqueness or interest. It's boring and still worthless at higher levels. It needs to be remade and scale in some way. This same logic applies to some of the other things like Sleep and whatever else I am not thinking of. Good improvement yes, but is it the definitive fix we need? I don't think so.

I want to try the new version preferably in a game with Rhys and then come and make a thread detailing exactly why I think the fountain should be nerfed. In the meantime, I'm sure Jay is doing the same thing.

i suggest fountain should be something like 2mana regeneration per second+.5%mana (1000mana= 7mana regen?)
well something like that... maybe 4+.25%... its just so its good for lowbies but still good for 62's.

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It's been tested in games, Sleep is a LOT better. Using it on preists and rangers is very useful. Raise Dead still sucks, I think it's worse actually because you have to have 3 corpses now, so it sucks for early questing.

yes sleep is better, but you only need 1 corpse for three skeletons. which is pretty good. and by the way, farms act as graveyards. they actually have corpses around them, so you can raise a skeletal army before you quest for kobolds.

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Why in the hell did you mess with Ice?

because ice is slightly OP (frostbite and orb). a free 110 damage AoE nuke is good >.< in my opinion, its more balanced but more OP than before lol. high frequency >.<, at max level its .25power dps. thats about 20dps...

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Combat consumable mana potion is a bad thing.

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They cost 6 gold in the test game, and it was a 62 game, no one touched them. I don't know if this was changed.

potions are hardly used... it takes about 5minutes to earn 5 gold. theyre only used on maxed out mages, and i usually see invisi potions or a mana potion hear and there. im going to post a potion idea soon lol.

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Towers are hella strong. They can 3-4 shot a new mage. It's already impossible unless you're an earth mage to down them at low levels. They take forever to end. Arcane should have a tower killing spell, then buff towers more for high level games.

i agree, if its possible we could do a damage formula, like ((cumulative levels/10)+70) = tower damage (if the game had 6 62's, the towers would have 106 damage, which is fair i guess, whereas anns mode would give the tower 71 damage. i also think that feedback should be 10+creep upgrades.

also if rhys could scale the noobshield that would be great, last game i was playing with a level 62lightning, a holy, and some lowbies. the 62 spammed TS on the lowbies and we could never kill them >.<
i think it should scale from level 1 through level 20. (by the way, we purposely fed the lowbies so that we could successfully kill them lol)

last thing im going to say is 'YAY FOR RHYS' woohoo finally the version is out after so much testing lol...