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 Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow

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What To Do?
Change the Pricing to Scale Early to Late Game?
13%
 13% [ 1 ]
Change the Stats to Scale with the Current Pricing?
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Change Price And Stats to Scale Appropriately?
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Tier the Pricing?
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Tier the Stats with current Pricing?
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Tier the Pricing and Stats?
25%
 25% [ 2 ]
Tier and Scale Everything?
62%
 62% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 8
 

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Rhys
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PostSubject: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:28 pm

As far as Normal Mode is concerned the game does a good job of balancing out all the pricing of items, you have as many games as you want to save up enough gold for the elemental gear. The problem that I personally have with the game is not with Normal mode but with All New and All New No Save (Besides the fact the name needs to be changed).

So Our poll and discussion this week is going to be on balancing the Gear in the game to fit better with All new and All New No Save. Here are The options I present to you guys, if there is another option that doesn't involve a month of programming new items and a system like Jay J suggested (That I love but cannot put in right now) then you can post that here as well, but please try to vote honestly and don't consider any issues like if theres enough time to do this or not.


Change the Pricing to Scale Early to Late Game?
Basically the First Item top Left of the shop will be the cheapest then going to the right row by row the price will methodically scale in amount it costs until it gets to the last item, then the next step will be elemental gear at the next price up.

Change the Stats to Scale with the Current Pricing?
Keep the current pricing as is and formulate a logical ability to price ratio and make each items ability fit the current pricing scheme.

Change Price And Stats to Scale Appropriately?
Basically a combination of the two options above.

Tier the Pricing?
The top row would be tier one and all have close amounts of money cost, not exactly the same but close. The next row down would be all higher class items that are better the the row above it, with a high base gold cost that are similir but not the same to each other. So on with the next two rows. Then the Elemental gear would be considered the next tier up.

Tier the Stats with current Pricing?
Basically any items that are similar in price range would be balanced to equal each other out if you bought one or the other each would be equally strong but different in some way.

Tier the Pricing and Stats?

Basically a combination of the two options above.


Tier and Scale Everything?
Completely rework all abilities and prices and rescale everything from top to bottom.

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Last edited by Rhys on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:35 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:32 pm

I would vote for pricing and balance tiers. Level 1-2-3 and elemental should have proper costs and abilities associated with that. All tier 1 items should be generally similar between cost and ability, ranging from maybe 50-175 in gold price and power matching it. Continue with the other tiers.

Also, I think we should fill out the boot shop if anyone has any good ideas. There is a lacking of boots in the boot shop, and boots in general are weak. I think both should be addressed.

P.S. I also think that there should be more items like the Belt of Giant Strength that can be equipped to 2 or more slots. That creates a great deal more strategy and I suggest one item in each shop should be able to be equipped to two or more slots.


Edit: Also, feel free to move items around in the shop in order to allow the balance to fit better and/or avoid nerfing useful items too much.


Last edited by Dragonheart91 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:34 pm

Boots are a main focus for my next version release, Im on the same page with you there!

*Edit to Respond to your edit!
I agree whole heartedly, Ive always loved the Belt and Runed Bracer for being able to do that.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:50 pm

I agree that the 2x slot items are good to have, but some don't make sense.... an item that goes into the boot/weapon slot?? Garment/acc is a great idea, and perhaps create more, but other combos wouldn't work very well I think.

Prices should reflect how good an item is, and perhaps assigninga value to stats/MS bonus/Dmg/armor/spell bonus is a good way to do that. IMO items need a recreation, the prices and bonuses need to be redone ATM, maybe to go so far as to throw out most of the items we have and start over, creating new ones, because i know that alot of them almost never get used.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:52 pm

which is one of the handful of reasons that i have this poll running, because to me the item issue is a big deal in MMM and many players enjoy having alot of items that are actually useful and not having just filler items in there that noone will ever use.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:02 pm

It seems that people only use late game items, and early items, because with income being the way it is, it makes little sense to spend your money on an item that is 40 gold, when next game you can get one that's 130 or so, and not need to buy another till you get ele gear. I don't think that items should be the end all reason someone can win a game, EVER. It should be a person's skill that allows them to beat someone else, and items should only amplify the skill they already posses.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:09 pm

I think tier and pricing redo should be done, it will make implementing the new system easier if everything is organized anyways. I think item is one of the few things this game really lacks, If i have priority on what should be done it would be
Items
war end function
short mode
bosses
spell rewrites
multi spells
the rest
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:06 pm

Well truthfully diaster, all of those things are extremely high priority. We have been waiting a very long time and those things are very much needed for the map to grow. Redoing the items is just the first good step towards making the map more fun. (Or fun again for old foggys like me that are beginning to tire* of it.)


*I won't quit no matter how bored I get though. The worst you would see is me playing less, but I will always participate on the forums.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:55 pm

other: change prices to scale with how usefull it is, then buff useless items ( like the oh so OP MoC ), then reprice them so that they are in league of all the other items of the same price range. they should have item categories ( starting, lower, medium, upper and possibly a greater [like a stronger item for neutral or elemental than already exists]). starting would be the weakest, all items are without a doubt better. lower would be better than starting for a cheap cost. medium would be varied abilities and stat allocations, a lower item could be arguably better than a medium one, but comparing two of a similar type the medium would be better. upper: these items would cost a minimum of 400/600 gold and be the end game items that only give small benifits over the medium ones, but contain unique abilities and or unique spell bonuses( elemental items fall into this category ). Greater would be items that cost lumber ( lumber cap would need a raise) these would be blank elemental items that gave a spell ( essentially buying another ultimate spell for your element ). just an idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:51 am

actually my list is the way I would order them from most important down to least important. I'm glad a lot of attention is being given to items cause they are REALLY lacking. and the idea of buying a spell on an item would be awesome as hell but it could make for some really imba bear. some skill combos should not be done!
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:07 am

Filling out the Item holes is a priority for next version, Im not planning on releasing that version until Pyth come through with some content (mainly because I want to move onto 7.13 with new coding, if its all just balances we may as well continue with 7.12d which im not a huge fan of.)


As of Now I have learned a great deal tonight, Thank you to sin for giving me insight to my only issue stopping me from learning how to work the object manager. So far Ive created 3 unique items that are not spectacular or anything but its a start, I tested them in a very limited 2v2 anns game and aside from them being too balanced (they seemed a little weak at times and a little strong at times) the next version release should at the least have full shops. Any issues with the shop items can be handled via forum activity and discussion after the fact. All of my Shamans, Jay J, and DarkDjinn will all get a copy of the change log to make sure things are balanced before its released, so you guys will have a chance to check out and balance the items before there put in. I cant say when the next release will be but it should be shortly after Pyth sends his work my way.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:07 pm

So, we were asking why people would buy a cheaper item if all they had to do was save up gold in the next few rounds and simply get a better one... Well, the answer is that you lose money when you buy any item due to the sell back rate. What if you changed the sell back rate from 75% (which I think it is) to 100% so that people can buy smaller items but *NOT* have the associated 25% gold loss penalty that goes along with that? I'll even have a small guide here how...

1.) Open World Editor

2.) Tabs at the top; go to Advanced.

3.) Click on Gameplay Constants

4.) Scroll down until you reach the 'I' Section where you'll find "Inventory - Sell Item Return Rate"

5.) Change to whatever you like (but as the post suggests, 100% return rate)

Any thoughts? Also, apologies if I've sounded snobbish, it was not my intention. I just remembered that Rhys doesn't have a ton of practical experience with the world editor and wanted to make the 'guide' as easy as possible to follow.

*Actually, I did some checking and the current item exchange rate is 65% of its original value; in other words 35% gold lost. For a 40 gold item that's 18 gold. That's huge. Additionally, being able to sell items at full price would allow higher levels to spec any way they wanted to. I.e. maybe someone made a mistake on the elemental staff they bought... no problem now, sell it and try out the other one.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:22 pm

selling things for 100% is stupid. if that was how it was in the real world, buying a car and selling it back to the dealership for the same price a year later, then our economy would be nowhere! sure, 65% is fine... but 100% all the time is completely unrealistic.

if items would be returned at 100% of the original cost, the item part of MM&M would be stupid and out of wack. its all about strategy and what items you buy. there IS no strategy when you can sell it back for 100% and buy new gear. NO STRATEGY AT ALL!

complete thumbs down to selling back items for 100%.q(-.-)p
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:28 pm

I'm ok with it. It would allow people to try things more easily and not be punished for experimentation. But, 100% raises two problems. #1 Is having no punishment means it would be a little too easy to change your items to counter your enemies during the war. #2 Is that it would mean you eventually got too much gold (with the current cap) and wouldn't be able to load at all. (Currently the solution is to buy and sell alot of items to lose gold.)

So, maybe 80% would be an adequate compromise.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:09 pm

Well the solution to problem 2 is to buy items then just trash them (leave them on the ground) and save. Or you could just leave the item in your inventory when you save, since I don't believe items in your inventory are saved, only the ones you have equipped.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:15 pm

It's 14 gold lost, not 18 (L2C). I believe the resell system now is quite generous. I wouldn't mind a buff to 70% but after that it gets too much. IMO the items in this game are too cheap.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:20 pm

BashAndSmash wrote:
It's 14 gold lost, not 18 (L2C). I believe the resell system now is quite generous. I wouldn't mind a buff to 70% but after that it gets too much. IMO the items in this game are too cheap.

Too cheap? Okay I think we have two very different ideas of how this game should go. On my side I have a casual view of the game in that it's accessible to anyone, meaning that almost everyone should be able to buy good items and make a good mage even if they're newb/casual and DON'T WANT TO PLAY THAT MUCH.

The other hand we have others that seem to think you should work your ass off (as much as you can in WC3) for a pittance. Having a good character does you jack bear in the real world. So I don't understand... I don't understand why you say the items are too cheap when it takes so damn many games to save up for the good items (unless you sell skill points which is dumb in my opinion because skill > items). I repeat; I don't understand. Please clarify your argument that items are too cheap.

I think it is attitudes such as this that make the game nigh un-accessible to the general B.net public.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:48 pm

actually the reason for grinding for little is a good 1 imo. I means it will take longer for you to do everything in the game which means you will get bored of it a lot slower.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:07 pm

Not necessarily. If you put in a ton of effort but get little in return, then you won't want to play. If you figure the entire game out/unlock everything there's still a chance of it being replayable. Example: I still play ninja gaiden after beating it because it's so much fun. The pace of MM&M is incredibly slow at the moment. That's not a bad thing really, but increasing the cost of every item, or several of the more used items, would be negative. Why? Because people like to be able to do well with a mage, especially when just starting out. The reward/work ratio just wouldn't be enough with a large price increase, at least not until the new questing content is out. Once that is out then I'm all for a price increase on certain things because I'd assume that the new quests would be lucrative.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:59 pm

I see both sides of it, as I have been both a casual and hardcore player of MM&M. As a casual player, it seemed ridiculous to try and get that much money, which caused me to play less. As a hardcore gamer, it seemed annoying that I got the items so soon and had no reason to continue playing.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:32 pm

This has actually been an issue that is going to be addressed soon enough. I have established for 7.13 that no gear no shall be higher then 1000 gold cost, a few elemental pieces have been reduced to accommodate this. As far as Balancing the pricing goes we will do that in small steps for elemental gear and over the next few releases the normal items will be changed to fit into a normal progression if you where to buy one at a time in a ANNS game.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:39 pm

AquaAscension wrote:
BashAndSmash wrote:
It's 14 gold lost, not 18 (L2C). I believe the resell system now is quite generous. I wouldn't mind a buff to 70% but after that it gets too much. IMO the items in this game are too cheap.

Too cheap? Okay I think we have two very different ideas of how this game should go. On my side I have a casual view of the game in that it's accessible to anyone, meaning that almost everyone should be able to buy good items and make a good mage even if they're newb/casual and DON'T WANT TO PLAY THAT MUCH.

So you're saying that just because they don't play the map every single day of their lives, they shouldn't be good as someone who does?

Hmph.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:04 am

But they won't be as good even if they do have the items. Player skill is more important than item set-up, and practice is the best way to gain skill.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:21 am

Dragonheart91 wrote:
But they won't be as good even if they do have the items. Player skill is more important than item set-up, and practice is the best way to gain skill.

That isn't what I meant.

What I meant is that someone who plays the map once a day shouldn't have access to something(s) that a player who only plays once a week.

Get my point, here?
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/1): All New Game Flow   Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:23 am

Yes, and I agree.
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