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 Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?

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What should MM&M be more?
All AoS, No RPG
9%
 9% [ 1 ]
More AoS, Less RPG
55%
 55% [ 6 ]
More RPG, Less AoS
27%
 27% [ 3 ]
All RPG, No AoS
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Null Vote
9%
 9% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 11
 

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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:21 pm

READ BEFORE VOTING


There has been much controversy over what the default mode for MM&M should be. Some think -anns, some think the current -nm, and some think only -an. There might be other thoughts out there, but these are the most common. Therefore, I present the following poll and question:

Should MM&M be an AoS with an RPG side, or an RPG with an AoS side? Basically, here's what each of them imply:

All AoS, No RPG
You want the save/load codes removed. You want all the elements to be perfectly balanced, yet unique. You want synergy and spell combos to be the primary part of the game. You look forward to the implementation of new game modes, items, elements, and other things that go towards the AoS. You most likely want MM&M to be very similar to DotA.

More AoS, Less RPG
You want to have the map be based around the AoS. You want the map to be competitive. You want the map to be a battle between you and other mages where things are balanced well and the fun lies within the AoS. You want save/load, but you really like the competitive, AoS portion of the map more than the Save/Load is important.

More RPG, Less AoS
Your dream is to make the map so that Save/Load is always enabled, yet people are able to go to the AoS by choice. You want to see boss fights and quests be much more interesting. You think that the AoS should still be there, but only have a minor influence over the map itself. You believe that the AoS might be a good way for new players to level up or PvP against other players. You think the AoS portion of the map means little.

All RPG, No AoS
You want the AoS removed, boss fights implemented, and the spell complexity to be as high as possible. You want to make it so that it's like any other RPG, but with the spells from MM&M. You dislike PvP and co-op is your type of thing. You look forward to boss fights, new spells, and new content overall.

I forbid to even RECOGNIZE any post saying "oh ehm geez balance teh 2 outz0rz cuz dats ttly pssible n lyk mke it s dat we has both rpg n aos in teh mapz0rz" or any content similar to that. I'm not talking about the terrible grammar and such, I'm talking about the content. There's no way that both of the 2 game types can be balanced out. You simply need to pick and choose which one you think is more important, then decide whether to simply make it dominant or to remove the other side of the map completely.


Last edited by SinisteRing on Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:37 pm

Where is the balanced vote? Playing this game as an AOS doesn't work out well because it's not made for that. It doesn't have the same visceral feel or the same fast-paced combat where every blow matters. It would have to be redone alot to focus on the APS. (Not that MM&M doesn't have great battles, but you don't have to worry about denying kills, or that your one death gave the enemy such an advantage that they are gonna win, or something crazy like that.)

The RPG side needs work, but even then it probably wouldn't stand up to other games based on being RPGs and might not draw the same people. (I don't play RPGs or other Save/Load AOS games.)


The magic of MM&M is that it HAS found the middle ground. You can play it as a mediocre AOS, or you can grind in a mediocre RPG. (Both sides need to be improved in that aspect too.) But the magic is when you pull together the in-depth customization of the RPG with the PVP AOS combat. Some people enjoy having deep character building AND skillful PVP. You can't take either away and call it the same map.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:44 pm

SinisteRing wrote:
I forbid to even RECOGNIZE any post saying "oh ehm geez balance teh 2 outz0rz cuz dats ttly pssible n lyk mke it s dat we has both rpg n aos in teh mapz0rz" or any content similar to that. I'm not talking about the terrible grammar and such, I'm talking about the content. There's no way that both of the 2 game types can be balanced out. You simply need to pick and choose which one you think is more important, then decide whether to simply make it dominant or to remove the other side of the map completely.

And your post dragon is exactly what he forbids.

I think you shouldn't make the same mistake as last time, the same mistake Zync made, and the same mistake Rhys made. Stop listening to the community and do what you think is right. Take opinion, but don't give it much head. Run it like a dictator.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:50 pm

Jay.J wrote:
I think you shouldn't make the same mistake as last time, the same mistake Zync made, and the same mistake Rhys made. Stop listening to the community and do what you think is right. Take opinion, but don't give it much head. Run it like a dictator.
If I ran it as a dictator THIS time, though, people probably wouldn't like the map. My idea of what to do with it is EXTREMELY out there and probably wouldn't draw much of a crowd except possibly those who play RPG's and myself.

(edit by Bart) Fixed the gold, Razz


Last edited by SinisteRing on Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:53 pm

You're working with Rhys. Communal dictatorship. He keeps you in check, not the community. The community has power, just less of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:56 pm

I voted for AoS, hardly any RPG.

Really, I just hate RPGs and the entire point of them. They NEVER have any fun-factor to me.

The only RPGs I ever liked, (and, actually, were my second favorite games of all time), were Baldur's Gate, (two games, plus an expansion for each game, lol).
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:01 pm

Baldur's Gate was amazing.


And SinisteRing and Jay J. you can't make it into an AoS OR an RPG without ruining the game. As I said, the thing that makes MM&M unique and the thing that makes me enjoy it is the combination of the two. Take that away makes it lose it's identity.


Edit: And I think Bartimaeus' vote should be considered null and void. He doesn't play the map and he doesn't like the map. Why should he vote on changes being made to the map?
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:03 pm

You're not taking it away. You're tipping the scales to favor one side more than the other.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:14 pm

Same end result. MM&M is carefully balanced, which is why it's so hard to be the map maker for it and why it's so hard to keep everyone happy. Notice how a lot of the DoTA players stopped playing when the stat limitations made the combat less jumpy DoTA style and the M-books added more RPG customization? We are now swinging it back a bit, but if you go too far the people who liked the deep customization will leave. (Probably people like diaster and maybe me depending.)

The thing is that the "RPG side" isn't about the questing or the non-existent-so-far bosses. It's about the level of customization in your character building. No other game lets you mix and match 23 spells for your hero from a list of ~100. Almost no other games have stat systems and equipment that are this unique. Finding the right mix of spells, equipment, and stats is the RPG side. Sure there are "Custom Hero AoS" games, but the aren't the same. Those are too fast-paced and end up leaning towards the AoS side too far. The other part of the RPG side is the pacing of the game. There's no denies, you don't have to worry about losing if you die, there is more of a casual feel to the whole game in general because you know that this particular game isn't that important in the career of your character.


Finding the correct middle ground and staying there is the real challenge to anyone working on MM&M.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:19 pm

idk jay I mean I understand by what you mean with dictatorship and all since I am forced to do so with my map from time to time, but I gotta say things have normally turned out for the better when I allow the community to help me brainstorm, and even if I don't like the ideas presented nothing stops me, or sin in this case from just say no, I'm doing it my way.

Personally I think the map needs its rpg element worked on more then the aos, but I don't want aos properties removed from the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:34 pm

I am the only one who will ever vote for it to be purely aos, I have long since believed and have discussed with Pyth about completely remaking MMM as a standalone AOS game without the rpg aspect in any way shape or form and calling it something else much like dota transformed from dota to dota allstars. However I was well aware that no one would like it because well.... well i don't know i just know its hard to persuade people around here to think differently.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:49 pm

Which is why this is a great co-dictatorship should you choose to run it that way. Sin wants a pure RPG. Rhys want a pure AoS. Forget the community, and it will be balanced.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:50 pm

An AoS only version of MM&M would be fine as long as it was balanced and created with that intent. The current system does not do a good job as an aos. And of course, it would be another version of MM&M. The normal MM&M would stay as-is.


Feel free to make your own AoS project if you have time. It would probably be a fun game as long as you balanced it with the AoS being the intention. You would have to remake half the map though and probably redo a bunch of the spells.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:08 pm

Dragonheart91 wrote:
Edit: And I think Bartimaeus' vote should be considered null and void. He doesn't play the map and he doesn't like the map. Why should he vote on changes being made to the map?

I don't like it because of the RPG aspect; take it out, and I might, especially since spells are stat-based, which is like EotA, which I love, lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:06 pm

No offense, but again your arguing for changing the game into something that you want due to your own motives that are unrelated. I still think only people who like the game should vote.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:01 am

Dragonheart91 wrote:
No offense, but again your arguing for changing the game into something that you want due to your own motives that are unrelated. I still think only people who like the game should vote.

What don't you get? I WOULD like the map if it had less RPG. The reason I don't like it solely based on the RPG part. I think it's completely fair to vote something off if I don't like it. What would I vote for if I already loved it how it was? What would be the point?
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:34 am

I voted for more AoS, less RPG but save/load is important to me, i just never liked quests much. If bosses are added they might be more fun since quests have been only about grind. Quests would be a lot more fun if dungeons with item rewards in the end would be added.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:34 pm

Well i prefer RPGs over AoS but..in wc3 all the rpgs suck..but AOS is very very fun ..cept dota
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:05 am

killll wrote:
but AOS is very very fun ..cept dota
You clearly hate the community. The game itself is what's great. The community just sucks ass.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/9/09): RPG or AoS?   Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:45 am

I personally voted for more Balance on the AoS. The RPG can be edited to compensate. The AoS, as it is, rather lacks variety in troops and is only interesting if there's another skilled player on the other team. I just get bored playing against WarCraft's AI.

I am of the opinion that BOTH the AoS and the RPG could be more than they currently are, but one side does need to be prioritized over the other, and for me that's the part that always has a new challenge: the AoS.
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