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 Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked

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Rhys
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PostSubject: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:36 am

Id like to get this table filled in with numbers reflecting the overall strength and weakness of each element. I have listed below a bunch of modifiable parameters along with the elements, basically we can simply start with who is the best at what. Each element should have its own specific strength that it does better then any other element. And a specific weakness that it does worse then any other element.
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Updated to SinisteRing's Table
Dark Earth Fire Holy Ice Lightning Water Wind
Stamina 2 1 4 3 7 8 6 5
Power 7 4 2 5 3 1 8 6
Essence 6 8 4 3 2 5 1 7
HP Regen 2 4 3 1 8 6 7 5
MP Regen 7 6 4 8 5 3 1 2
Armor 2 1 8 3 5 7 4 6
Damage 1 5 6 8 3 2 7 4
Speed6 8 5 4 3 2 7 1

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Last edited by Rhys on Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:37 pm; edited 7 times in total
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killll
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:42 am

Mana Regen - Water , Fire , Ice top three ( not counting darks death pact )

speed - Wind is 1st Earth is last.


Armor - Earth is 1st

Base hp - Earth , dark being 1st and second and water beinh 7th and lightning being 8th


ill do more 2morrow g2g right now
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:55 am

Where 8 is the worst and 1 is the highest?

For stamina, 1 - Earth, 2 - Dark, 3 - Holy ... Whatever.
For Power, 2 - Fire, 3 - Ice, 4 - Earth
MP regen, 1 - water, 2 - Holy, 3 - Dark
Speed, 1 - Wind, 2 - Lightning, 3 - Fire

This is actually a lot harder than it looks.

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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:42 am

Interesting. What do the 1 and 8 mean?


I guess it's kinda similar to sudoku. No two elements can be #1 in something, so you have to have 1-8 across each row without the same number repeating. In addition, each column must average to exactly 4.5 for balance purposes. I'll work on this tomorrow, but it's late right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:48 am

The columns are uneven. To make it "fair" or even, shouldn't it be 8 by 8 instead of 8 by 10 ?
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:19 am

I guess you'd have to take into account a ton of different factors for deciding where to place each of the elements. Or do we?

Are we only taking into account the abilities of the mage or are we also taking into account the items (elemental of course) that are specific for each mage class? I mean, if you think about it, then, duh, without skills or items all the mages are equal.

So, what are we trying to account for in your best/worst formula?
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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:51 am

there's certainly more then just these stats to determine each elements strength and weakness. Pretty sure I said don't worry about ties. But if you want to break it down... well I guess I should say if it is actually possible to break it down like that then you would have to at the least make it even, meaning 8 elements 8 stats for it to be possible without blank spots.

I am not necessarily putting a restriction on the scale. a 8 would mean that this element is the worst and a 4 would be average. so on our imaginary scale we can determine that 3 is below average 2 sucks and 1 is the worst.

There can only be One Worst but there can be many that just suck. likewise there can only be One best but many that are great.

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Last edited by Rhys on Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:55 am

wonder how nature and arcane will fit on there...
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DarkDjinni
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:02 am

diaster wrote:
wonder how nature and arcane will fit on there...

And you totally contributed nothing to this thread.

I would totally Mod your post, and not make this one but someone is being quite stubborn about my power situation. Evil or Very Mad

The above statement contains no malice at all.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:47 am

Quote :
I am not necessarily putting a restriction on the scale. a 8 would mean that this element is the worst and a 4 would be average. so on our imaginary scale we can determine that 3 is below average 2 sucks and 1 is the worst.

I think you mean 1 is the best and 8 is the worst. 4 Is average. 2 is second best. 3 is third best. 7th is second worst etc...

I think it would be more balanced and organized if you had an 8x8 table. I would remove Base HP and Base MP. Then make everything only 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. Like Dragon said have an average of 4.5. What you could do is that, anything with a 6 or above, might not get any of that stat or very little of it, and anything 1-3 would get a good amount etc.

Is this supposed to help Element balance, or Elemental items balance?

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killll
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:44 pm

I disagree with earth being the 4th best in power..it only has 2 power in all of it's element gear.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:33 pm

Drop the "Base MP" and "Base HP" stats. Your stats in this game are customizable, and those are redundant anyway. (If you need them for item purposes, then switch Stamina and Essence for Base MP and Base HP, then average Base MP with MP Regeneration to get Essence and average Base HP with HP Regeneration to get Stamina.)


Stamina: Fire is #4, Wind is #5, Water is #6, Ice is #7, and Lightning is #8.

Power: Lightning is #1, Ice is #2, Fire is #3, Dark is #4, Holy is #5, Wind is #6, Earth is #7, Water is #8.

Essence: Water is #1, Ice is #2, Holy is #3, Dark is #4, Lightning is #5, Fire is #6, Wind is #7, Earth is #8.

HP Regeneration: Earth is #1, Dark is #2, Holy is #3, Fire is #4, Wind is #5, Lightning is #6, Water is #7, Ice is #8.

MP Regeneration: Water is #1, Ice is #2, Dark is #3, Holy is #4, Fire is #5, Wind is #6, Lightning is #7, Earth is #8.

Armor: Earth is #1, Water is #2, Ice is #3, Wind is #4, Fire is #5, Dark is #6, Holy is #7, Lightning is #8.

Damage: Dark is #1, Earth is #2, Water is #3, Lightning is #4, Fire is #5, Wind is #6, Holy is #7, Ice is #8.

Speed: Wind is #1, Lightning is #2, Dark is #3, Ice is #4, Fire is #5, Holy is #6, Water is #7, Earth is #8.



Those are the rough numbers to fill in the grid for a start. Next we will have to go down each column making sure the average is 4.5 and tweaking numbers as necessary. That will be alot easier once the grid is filled in though, so I'll do it later after you do the grid.


Last edited by Dragonheart91 on Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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killll
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:36 pm

Water has more power then earth..
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:38 pm

In what universe? Water has 4 spells that use Power IIRC. Earth has about 8 IIRC.


Edit: We aren't voting which one gets the bonuses from items right now, we are voting which ones should fill which roles.

Edit #2: [emote] misses the Elemental forums where I could just look up all the Water and Earth spells real quick.[/emote]


Last edited by Dragonheart91 on Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:41 pm; edited 4 times in total
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killll
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:39 pm

Mine..water trinket alone is better then all of earths power....The stat..but not the PEWPEW.
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:48 pm

Bro....Killl. He's remaking Elemental items. It's what it SHOULD be. Not what it IS. That's what he means by balance phase.

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killll
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:52 pm

Rhys said:

And a specific weakness that it /does/ worse then any other element.

not What /should/


Anyways My fualt missunderstanding.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:12 pm

Quote :
Each element should have its own specific strength that it does better then any other element.

Regardless, I think if you just threw together Dragons numbers and modified them once they were up there to balance out numbers that would probably be more efficient. However...I don't know. I don't see you making Armor or Damage = Power or MP regen. Basically, I don't think all the stats have equal usage, at least not yet.

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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:14 pm

Ok well lots of responses this is good. I dont have time on my lunch break to fill in the new numbers but I will later tonight.


To clear things up I am not talking about what the elements are Right Now more so about what they should ideally be.

Also I took out the Base MP/HP stats to make it even columns with rows. Since I did that we should ideally be able to make up a perfect sudoku style grid where no number is repeated on a column or row.

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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:36 pm

Actually, columns can repeat the numbers. As long as they average out correctly it's fine for an element to be the best at 2 things and the worst at 2 things to balance it.


And like Jay, I feel that Damage and Armor aren't quite as valuable as the other things. We should average the stuff on a scale to make up for that. (Off the top of my head, everything besides those gets x3, and Armor/Damage get x2. That makes them averaged on the scale to be worth 2/3 as much as everything else. We could also go 1/2 or whatever else if we needed to depending on how much we feel they are worth.)

So, the next question is how much are Armor and Damage worth compared to the other "real" stats? Should they be worth 1/2 as much, 2/3 as much, 1/3 as much, or what?
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:15 pm

Too much math. Just figure out the 4.5 average style, whether it's able to be #1 in more than one or not. Sudoku style or Average style.

Then you can just make the other values ridiculous.

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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:43 pm

That's true, you could just give ALOT of Armor/Damage to make them as useful as the others.
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:41 pm

the actual numbers of everything will be determined later on, basically this is for concept only.

Also now that The grid is getting filled in Earth is Repeatedly #1 in multiple areas. This is not a huge deal, I know some people may think it is however this is not a complete balance indicator of the Elements they are simply for the Gear in general and where specific weakness's and strengths lie for each element.

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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:15 pm

maybe throw effective range on there?
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PostSubject: Re: Balance Phase : 7.20 Released - Locked   Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:35 pm

Finished the table according to how I'd like it.

Dark Earth Fire Holy Ice Lightning Water Wind
Stamina 2 1 4 3 7 8 6 5
Power 7 4 2 5 3 1 8 6
Essence 4 8 6 3 2 5 1 7
HP Regen 2 1 4 3 8 6 7 5
MP Regen 3 6 7 2 5 8 1 4
Armor 2 1 8 3 5 7 4 6
Damage 1 2 6 8 4 3 7 5
Speed6 8 5 4 3 2 7 1
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