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 Communism, Capitalism And Nazism

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Wich is better?
Communism
40%
 40% [ 4 ]
Capitalism
50%
 50% [ 5 ]
Nazism
10%
 10% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 10
 

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Balnazzar
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PostSubject: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:58 am

Post and Vote on the subject, please refrain from voting without stating your reasons in a post.

Please, if you have any doubts about any of them say it on the other topic, the one called "Communism, Capitalism And Nazism - Questions".

P.S.: I'm extremely bored right now, and i wanted to make this topic a long time ago, but i wasn't as bored as i am right now.


P.S. #2 I could add more if you want.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:35 am

I would not call it nazism, more of a fascist dictatorship. However for my vote would be for collective communism. You might ask why I didn't just say communism, the reason for this is forced communism will never work. The only type of communism that has a chance is where everyone in the group wishes to be part of the group in assisting the collective need. An idea like this will most likely never take place in large scale unless humanity itself evolves into a being that can see further than itself, family, friends, townsmen, countrymen; And see people with no real relationship to you as equals and deserving of your help.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:02 pm

Add democracy.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:05 pm

We are talking about financial systems, not types of government.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:03 pm

capitalism. America is Founded on it. It obviously Works on a large scale so far. Of course it may not for long but thats not the point.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:36 pm

Capitalism has proven to work quite well in the short term especially when establishing a new economy. The long-term is still questionable, as it has had some definite ups and downs in America. If your founding a new country, Capitalism is a good choice to start with. You might have to convert your economy later though or at least reform it somewhat.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:27 pm

Communism simply cannot work. If reward is still given, completely absent of input, then people will choose not to pull their own weight. So a governmental system will need to be in place to MAKE them pull their weight, this is oppressive. If this system is in the hands of a human being, rather than a perfectly logical and selfless entity, then it will be corrupted for the benefit of those in power. If it was in the hands of a computer AI, as above, then the people would revolt: "a computer shouldn't be able to MAKE them do anything, its just wrong!" There would be a short civil war that would probably make a good movie, and then the regime would shatter.

In terms of collective communism, it would fail in the same way, after generational resistance to traditional values leads to people being lazy.


Nazism isn't a financial system.


I voted for capitalism.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:40 pm

Money isn't the only source of reward or motivational means to work. Respect and fame would become motivators to work as it would be what separates people. Rankings would also make people work. People would be ranked in their workplaces making the work harder. They would mean nothing, but would be there and be a purely psychological means of working hard.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:16 pm

How can you have reward or fame in a system that is based off of absolute unquesioning equality? Having rewards for increaded productivity or merit is called capitalism.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:16 pm

I voted for communism.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:20 pm

Not for an entire community. Not for enough people to make communism work.

I said reward to include respect, fame, money, rankings, etc. Any sort of psychological "reward" system. Rankings are counter to pure communism's basic principles. And respect and fame alone won't be nearly enough to drive the people in the fields and the mines etc. to work harder.

Respect, fame, and even rankings get really old when all the people who are respecting, faming, and ranking you for your hard work appear to be getting fat off of your excess production and not following your example themselves.

I see 4 votes for communism and one argument for it. Plus one counterargument that seems to favor it and one argument against capitalism

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:30 pm

Well pure anything fails... Leaning towards communism isn't so bad though. I think psychological rewards and cultural norms are being downplayed. If the culture and mindset is to work for the country and not for ones self, and then the psychological feeling of ranks for those who are inhreitently more selfish are enough to make a community work.

Everyone would be working however, and a lot of regulation would be cut off. For example the money for a doctor or lawyer would no longer be an appeal, but it would be because people want to be one, and want to help them. This allows you to kill the amount of competition, but still get quality professions because they're doing it because they want to or for respect or both.

Granted, a job such as a miner may not be ideal - however that's where importing comes in.

Really, this boils down to a nurture versus nature debate...

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:47 pm

Capitalism, for in that, at least I have the right to believe what I want to believe in, and I don't end up getting killed, (put in an oven, specifically), for being a Christian.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:36 pm

Jay.J wrote:
Well pure anything fails... Leaning towards communism isn't so bad though. I think psychological rewards and cultural norms are being downplayed. If the culture and mindset is to work for the country and not for ones self, and then the psychological feeling of ranks for those who are inhreitently more selfish are enough to make a community work.

Everyone would be working however, and a lot of regulation would be cut off. For example the money for a doctor or lawyer would no longer be an appeal, but it would be because people want to be one, and want to help them. This allows you to kill the amount of competition, but still get quality professions because they're doing it because they want to or for respect or both.

Granted, a job such as a miner may not be ideal - however that's where importing comes in.

Really, this boils down to a nurture versus nature debate...

So what you're saying is there won't be a shortage of skilled labor because helping people, community spirit, and the respect of others will be enough for people to devote 6+ years of their life to training for that profession?

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:18 pm

First, this is the second time I write this, I, by mistake, erased the whole post after finishing writing it, so I'm remaking it now.

Quote :
Add democracy.

I don't believe in it, it's always manipulated by a powerful person. I don't think the concept of "Democracy" is "Real".


Quote :
We are talking about financial systems, not types of government.

Everything revolves around power, and money is the current power.


Quote :
capitalism. America is Founded on it. It obviously Works on a large scale so far. Of course it may not for long but thats not the point.

It doesn't work, the world is a complete and utter disaster, and it's mostly capitalism's fault.

In his Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism (1916) Lenin advanced the view that imperialism is the highest stage of the capitalist economic system. Lenin developed a theory of imperialism aimed to improve and update Marx's work by explaining a phenomenon which Marx predicted: the shift of capitalism towards becoming a global system (hence the slogan "Workers of the world, unite!"). At the core of this theory of imperialism lies the idea that advanced capitalist industrial nations increasingly come to export capital to captive colonial countries. They then exploit those colonies for their resources and investment opportunities. This superexploitation of poorer countries allows the advanced capitalist industrial nations to keep at least some of their own workers content, by providing them with slightly higher living standards.


Quote :
Capitalism has proven to work quite well in the short term especially when establishing a new economy. The long-term is still questionable, as it has had some definite ups and downs in America. If your founding a new country, Capitalism is a good choice to start with. You might have to convert your economy later though or at least reform it somewhat.

Capitalist aristocracy exploits the proletarian and other weaker countries, the damages that causes aren't simple and easy to solve, Dragon.


Quote :
How can you have reward or fame in a system that is based off of absolute unquesioning equality? Having rewards for increaded productivity or merit is called capitalism.

In his pamphlet What is to be Done? (1902), Lenin argued that the proletariat can only achieve a successful revolutionary consciousness through the efforts of a vanguard party composed of full-time professional revolutionaries. Lenin further believed that such a party could only achieve its aims through a form of disciplined organization known as democratic centralism, wherein tactical and ideological decisions are made with internal democracy, but once a decision has been made, all party members must externally support and actively promote that decision.


Quote :
Capitalism, for in that, at least I have the right to believe what I want to believe in, and I don't end up getting killed, (put in an oven, specifically), for being a Christian.

That's Stalin's regime, Stalinism isn't the representation of communism, there are many kinds of communism, including Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Anarchist Communism, and even Religious Communism.
Personally, I'm not in favor of Stalinism. Ohh, and BTW, I'm an atheist.


Jay is getting the idea, so I'll let you two (Pythagoras and Jay.J) Debate.

P.S.: All the quotes I used to answer are from Wikipedia.com.

P.S. #2: If you wanna know more about Marxism/Communism visit the website on my signature, www.marxists.org / www.marx.org .


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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:50 am

Quote :
So what you're saying is there won't be a shortage of skilled labor because helping people, community spirit, and the respect of others will be enough for people to devote 6+ years of their life to training for that profession?

What I think is that 6 years to become a doctor is because of a lot of regulation needed in the free market. If it wasn't for University, and Graduate school you'd see a lot more professional people - which isn't needed. To do the actual work of a Doctor, isn't all that hard, getting there is much harder. If less people want to get there - you don't need to make it that hard. I mean seriously, if you're studying something for 4 years, and just that...you don't even need to be smart to be good at it. If I study feet for 4+ years, I better know what's wrong with your feet when you come to me with a foot problem.

Basically - Regulation of jobs could be severely shortened for many professional jobs.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:31 am

You think that medical school as an institution is only in place to limit the number of doctors? Regulation of standards of training isn't arbitrary. Lowering educational standards probably won't work to increase the amount of trained professionals either, because unless you turn it into a "off-the-street" job by completely deregulating it. Its still a tremendous time investment.

Take, for example, Canadians who come down to the U.S. to get medical care, because of the vast outnumbering of patients to doctors due to their socialized health-care system that result in long waiting periods before care is even received.

Another thing that hasn't been discussed is how tasks are allocated to people. Is there freedom of choice? What if everyone wants to do the same thing (even if it isn't nothing at all). There are no economic relationships to create an equilibrium of efficiency on that level. Does an outside entity make the decision? If so, how? and do his or her friends and family get all the easy jobs?

Quote :
It doesn't work, the world and a complete and utter disaster, and it's mostly capitalism's fault.
Are you mad? Do you think any human would have failed any less than Stalin in Russia? From what I understand, for a period of time things were pretty fucking bleak in that country. Can you point and show me where the world is a disaster? And then show me that it isn't a result of trying to make things equal and lend money to people who are unable to pay it back. And if the current economic "crisis" wasn't to what you referred, I apologize for the hasty reply.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:56 am

Quote :
It doesn't work, the world and a complete and utter disaster, and it's mostly capitalism's fault.

Corrected that sentence (The and for an is).


Quote :
Are you mad? Do you think any human would have failed any less than Stalin in Russia?

I'm guessing you didn't read the whole post ^^, as this is what i said near the end:

Quote:
Capitalism, for in that, at least I have the right to believe what I want to believe in, and I don't end up getting killed, (put in an oven, specifically), for being a Christian.


That's Stalin's regime, Stalinism isn't the representation of communism, there are many kinds of communism, including Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Anarchist Communism, and even Religious Communism.
Personally, I'm not in favor of Stalinism.

In fact, i hate Stalin, mainly for 3 reasons: 1) Killing Trotsky, who would of been the perfect leader. 2) The slaughters he committed. 3) His belief in that every communist country should not intervene in other countries for the purpose of helping the communist process, thus making the communist process not global, as it should be.



Quote :
Can you point and show me where the world is a disaster?

I guess you like Africa Very Happy .


Quote :
And then show me that it isn't a result of trying to make things equal and lend money to people who are unable to pay it back.

Yes, i'm sure all the American Capitalists that invested in Africa only did it to make it progress and help the population, not because of the interests.


Quote :
And if the current economic "crisis" wasn't to what you referred, I apologize for the hasty reply.


Everything revolves around economy, so i could be refering both to it, moral principles (The ones that capitalism generated), etc.


Quote :
Are you mad?

Yes, i consider myself slightly mad, but i don't see it as a bad thing.


Quote :
What if everyone wants to do the same thing

I don't see your point there.


P.S.: Just to expand the concept of Communism some people here may have, I'll quote something about Ernesto "Che" Guevara from two sources, first, Wikipedia, then, Marxists.org.

Quote :
Both notorious as a ruthless disciplinarian who unhesitatingly shot defectors and revered by supporters for his rigid dedication to professed doctrines, Guevara remains an admired, controversial, and significant historical figure. As a result of his perceived martyrdom, poetic invocations for class struggle, and desire to create the consciousness of a "new man" driven by "moral" rather than "material" incentives; Guevara evolved into a quintessential icon of leftist-inspired movements. Paradoxically and in contradiction with his ideology, Che's visage was also reconstituted as a global marketing emblem and insignia within popular culture. He has been mostly venerated and occasionally reviled in a multitude of biographies, memoirs, books, essays, documentaries, songs, and films. Time magazine named him one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century, while an Alberto Korda photograph of him entitled Guerrillero Heroico (shown), was declared "the most famous photograph in the world."
That's from Wikipedia.org



Quote :
Towards the end of his formal affiliation with the Cuban government, Che came to implicitly criticize Soviet bureacracy. His positions put him at odds with the party line of the Cuban CP. In 1965, Che realized that the defence of the Cuban revolution and the creation of revolutions abroad were naturally not always in sync, and this ultimately led to his resignation and his return to revolutionary work abroad.
That's from Marxists.org


He is one of the communists I admire the most, he is a doctor bornt in Argentina, and also, an asthmatic person, who even so spent many years in cuba fighting for a communist revolution, I strongly recommend reading his biographies at Wikipedia and Marxists.org and also watching the recent movie called "Che" with Benicio Del Toro as Ernesto Che Guevara. (It's a two parts movie)

Quote :
Guevara remains a beloved national hero to many in Cuba, where his image adorns the $3 Cuban Peso and school children begin each morning by pledging "We will be like Che."
From Wikipedia.


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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:05 am

Quote :
You think that medical school as an institution is only in place to limit the number of doctors? Regulation of standards of training isn't arbitrary. Lowering educational standards probably won't work to increase the amount of trained professionals either, because unless you turn it into a "off-the-street" job by completely deregulating it. Its still a tremendous time investment.

I may be underestimating the actual work med-school needs, however it is a fact that it's a highly regulated job because of the pay, respect etc. I'm not saying make it a off the street job, but in general the whole educational system is full of padding. There's a lot of padding in grades 1-12 because it costs the government money to keep people who fail in school. I would highly condense the school system. Shave off 2 years, and have people going to university @ 16 or so. Unlike it is now, where you go for a very general thing, like majoring in chemistry, or math or political science or something - it would be very specific. You pretty much are from then on, trained in the field you want to go into.

Quote :
Take, for example, Canadians who come down to the U.S. to get medical care, because of the vast outnumbering of patients to doctors due to their socialized health-care system that result in long waiting periods before care is even received.

It's also a lot harder to become a doctor in Canada then it is in the states, which is stupid because of the high demand of the job. However the problem is the actual money. If we completely removed money and didn't have to pay people, and everyone just had credits that they could spend how they want...then we wouldn't have that kind of a problem. Unlike money, everyone would make the same amount of credits a month, and you could spend them as you wished. If you want a bigger house, go for it but you probably won't have as nice a car now. If you want one anyway, you're going to be missing out on food or something. I do think however, a large amount of accountants would be needed.

Quote :
Another thing that hasn't been discussed is how tasks are allocated to people. Is there freedom of choice? What if everyone wants to do the same thing (even if it isn't nothing at all). There are no economic relationships to create an equilibrium of efficiency on that level. Does an outside entity make the decision? If so, how? and do his or her friends and family get all the easy jobs?

Yup. You can go into whatever you want. If everyone wants to do the same thing, you do the same thing as you would in a capitalist society, you make it harder to get into. There's only a limited amount of space in say, the food sector and if you're not one of the people who doesn't get in there then you have to go and get a job else where. I think regulation in education systems would help. If you don't have a job for a month let's say - you're forced to get a job somewhere based on the needs of the country. I guess an outside entity would make these decisions, however I think that person would be elected democratically. The thing is, just because you want to do something doesn't mean you'll be able to. There's still supply and demand just it's dealt with in other ways.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:44 pm

@Bal:
I read your whole post, the main question I asked in that passage was also the second. Do you believe anyone would have failed less than Stalin in the same position? My stance is no, Trotsky would have ruined it all just the same.

@Jay:
Apply the principles of microeconomics and you'll see that you can't just allow people to do what they want. The reason capitalism works is because of an intricate balance of supply and demand in relation to society's needs. If there are too many dairy farmers, the supply of milk is greater than it needs to be, and the price of milk in relation to the average cost of producing milk is lower, if the price doesn't outweigh the cost, over time, as they can liquidate, dairy farmers will leave the industry and find work elsewhere until the supply is reduced to a point at which the price of production is higher than the cost, and now that there are economic profits being earned, people outside of the industry see this and invest capital and enter the industry, increasing the supply and so on and so forth until an equilibrium is reached.
Of course in the United States we have this silly thing called government regulation in which a price floor is imposed on milk to keep dairy farmers that should have gone out of business in business. And the U.S. government is required by law to buy all excess milk at that price. This milk ends up going into school lunch programs, and being exported (I believe it is exported with no price tag attached, as in given, could be wrong) to other countries, many African. The tragedy here is that African countries have agriculturally based economies, including dairy. This influx of low priced/free milk actually hurts the economy of that country. The reason i bring this example up is because a price floor is closer to communism than it is capitalism.

In closing: How much regulation and training do you think are required to be a dairy farmer?
How would you keep this democratically elected official from becoming the next Stalin?

Edit: People seem to believe that currency itself is evil. On an unrelated note to the rest of my post, theorize a bartering system and try to reason why it wouldn't be the exact same, people want more than what they have, ALWAYS. The greed and laziness of humanity is why communism fails.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:14 pm

Quote :
@Bal:
I read your whole post, the main question I asked in that passage was also the second. Do you believe anyone would have failed less than Stalin in the same position? My stance is no, Trotsky would have ruined it all just the same.

So you basically believe that every kind of communism and every communist is just the same Razz.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:38 pm

No, I believe that given the kind of power that a governmental agency requires to run a communist nation, that government will be corruptable and in fact, will be corrupted.

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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:41 pm

That's what i believe of Capitalist governments ^_^.
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:55 pm

So you're ignoring the complete and utter oppression of all peoples that lived under communist regimes throughout history?

Edit: If you want to shrug off the rhetorical nature of the above. Then I ask you, in what way is a capitalist government more corruptable than a communist?

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On the carpet, on the ceiling, no more words, no more feelings"
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Belial
Master Mage
Master Mage
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Number of posts : 266
Registration date : 2008-07-23
Age : 26
Location : No ty, i don't want people to try to rape me in my own house.

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Level: 1
Primary Move: Posession

PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:46 pm

I voted for Nazism because no one else did. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Communism, Capitalism And Nazism   

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Communism, Capitalism And Nazism
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