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 Time for an EPIC Item discussion.

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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:25 pm

Alright, I had alot of things to say earlier. (Not ALL of them nice.) But, I didn't have much time to talk. So, here I'll describe all of my thoughts about the item system and ask for other opinion on various things. I know Rhys is gonna hate me for this, but most of my discussion is operating under the assumption that what he currently is using is scrapped and we are starting from scratch. (Not that it all has to be scrapped, but for the sake of discussion it's easier to just start from scratch.)

Ok, lemme first describe what is there right now. There are 4 basic pieces of gear for each slot. (Although Rhys says there will be more soon, this is the starting set.) They are essentially an incremental growth of power that alternate between different focuses. They also have HEAVY stat requirements. (Although Rhys said he would reduce those alot.) When I last saw them, it was something like 22/40, 30/32/24, or 50/22 being the stat requirements for some of them IIRC. Then, there are also 4 gear pieces for each slot for each element. So, there is a level 5/15/30/45 gear piece for each element for each slot. The current Elemental gear is still there also as a sort of end game thing. All of the items give pitiful bonuses compared to what we have now. The best item I could find was something like +100% regen, +60 damage, +100 hp, +2 to all stats, +60 MP, and/or a couple of other minor bonuses. (Although like I said, the old Elemental gear is still there.) I'm going to stay neutral about the vast weakening of all of the items. That is a balance decision to be made by Rhys and complained about by everyone else.

I'm not trying to complain about these, just giving a description as accurately as possible.



Now, onto my suggestion. In another thread, I suggested a 5 tier system for each item and a 2 tier system for each elemental gear piece where you had to upgrade to get each higher level item. After doing the math on the items required I have realized how thoroughly impossible that is. (It required some ungodly amount of items like 800+ in total.) But, with a few changes, I got it down to a total item count of 257.* I realize that is still two items over our max, and it doesn't allow for boss drops, but I think you can drop that number by another 5 down to 252 with a few simple changes.** That puts us just under the limit, although we will run into some trouble if we add alot of unique boss items. So, here's my suggestion now:

We use an upgrading system. Each piece of starting gear would have 4 upgrade paths to choose from. You would have level requirements and stat requirements on each piece that slowly increased. Once you picked which path to follow for each piece, it would be fairly linear until the final upgrade. At that point, you would have two choices. One of them would continue on the path you had chosen like a final tier, but the other would be a hybrid of sorts. It would have some of the characteristics of one of the other upgrade paths and/or a special ability. Most of the Accessories final forms should have special abilities in my opinion btw. Final tier items would be only slightly sub-par compared to Elemental items and might have comparable or slightly higher stats.

The method of upgrading would have to be unique due to the strict item limitations. When you wanted to upgrade, there would be an icon in the shop labeled "Upgrade Equipment" or something along those lines. You would click it, and a menu would come up asking you which of your 4 items you wanted to upgrade. It would then show you a shop where you could preview the upgrade choices. When your ready to make selection, you would again click the upgrade button and then either select one of the options (With the price labeled there.) or cancel. Yes it's slightly more ponderous, but I think we can work out a more smooth way to do it later. (There ought to be a way to code it so that you don't need to use dummy items. That way, you could actually buy the real item, have the one it was upgrading from be automatically destroyed, and then have the new one automatically equip all happen immediately.) We could also use various shops linked together to work as the menus similar to how Warlock does it.


As for the stats, I'll give an example. This is of course totally open to discussion.

Basic Garment: +75 hp, +1 armor, +1 hp regeneration. (Requires nothing.)
Upgrade #1 (Regeneration): +3 hp regeneration, +100 hp, +1 armor, +20% mana regeneration. (Requires level 5 and 12 Essence and Stamina.)
Upgrade #2 (Tanking): +2 armor, +125 hp, +2 hp regeneration, +1 Stamina (Requires level 5 and 16 Stamina.)
Upgrade #3 (Essence): +15% mana regeneration, +1 Hp regeneration, +100 hp, +3 Essence (Requires level 5 and 16 Essence.)
Upgrade #4 (Stats): +50 hp, +1 armor, +2 Stamina, +2 Essence, +1 Power (Requires level 5 and 14 Power, Stamina, and Essence.)

Since I could sit here all day showing all the possibilities, I'm just going to follow one upgrade path.

Essence tier 2: +25% mana regeneration, +2 hp regeneration, +125 hp, +5 Essence, +1 Stamina (Requires level 15 and 20 Essence.)
Essence tier 3: +35% mana regeneration, +2 hp regeneration, +150 hp, +8 Essence, +2 Stamina, +2 Power (Requires level level 30, 23 Essence, and 18 in both Power and Stamina.)
Essence tier 4 (Standard): +45% mana regeneration, +2 hp regeneration, +15% spell reduction, +11 Essence, +4 Power, +3 Stamina, +175 hp (Requires level 40, 30 Essence, 25 Power, and 21 Stamina.)
Essence tier 4 (Hybrid Stats): +30% mana regeneration, +13 Essence, +8 Stamina, +9 Power (Requires level 45, 28 Essence, 28 Power, and 25 Stamina.)

It might not be balanced in the end, but the point is just to give you an example of what I mean, not make it perfect. (That's Rhys's job. -Muhahaha-)




*I cut my item tiers down from 5 (4 tiers + unique) to 4 (3 tiers + unique) which reduced it by a multiplier of 4. Then, I thought of an alternative upgrade system that only requires 1 item total, (For ever item upgrade in the map. It would require some menus though.) instead of 1 item for each possible upgrade.

**The starting 4 gear pieces wouldn't have to be saved. Basically, if a player loads a mage which doesn't have one item for each possible equip slot, you fill in any slots with starting gear and deduct the cost of selling that item from their gold. Yes this could be abused, but only to gain a maximum of 2-5 gold or so total, so I don't think that's a problem. Anyway, that cuts down 4 items by not making the base gear be saved. Then, the item to access the upgrade menu is never actually purchased, so it doesn't have to be saved either. That is how I deduct 5 from the total.

P.S. Yes, I checked my math this time. 4 items upgrading 4 possible ways then linear upgrades for 2 tiers, then one more decision. That is a total of 192. Then the elemental items, would ignore tiers altogether and just have 2 sets to choose from. (It's a necessary and not THAT bad concession. It means your limited to 32 choices instead of 48 with an upgrade to get there.) That means 64 total added to the 192, which makes a grand total of (including the upgrade button) 257.



More later, I will be working on this thread off-and-on all night probably. If you want to comment now, I guess you can, but I'm not nearly done.

Edit: Alright, you can start commenting. I won't promise I'm done, but you can start asking questions and pointing out anything you thought was important.)
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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:34 am

From what I've read, I don't think there should be ANY stat requirements to wear gear. Only level requirements. If you want your Base stats to be 10/62/44 or whatever the numbers look like, and then boost your stamina you should be able to. If you figure you would rather have your early games as a mage as a suicidal killer, so you could just power level by getting lots of kills then, later augment all your stamina from items....you should be able to. Same thing if you wanted to go 62/10/44 and just survive the whole game, and later balance your power out later so you could do some damage, while early on relying on summons and what not. Or if you want to start out polar, and end polar you should be able to do so. The point of items is to supplement or augment your current strengths OR weakness's, depending on your choice and play style. NOT to just be there and make you mold your stats so that everyone has the same kind of stats because they want certain items.

Also, from what I've heard/read, as I haven't seen the item system, if it's not an upgrade system, it's not very useful. The point of tiered items was two fold. Balance, and making usage of all items and builds to diversify the game. Balance may be done without an upgrade system, however without one, you will still see people just buying tier 4 or 5 items as their first items. Why would you spend any gold on low tier items, when you can just save up and have your perfect mage sooner. Dragon told me it's because it takes too many dummy units or something. If an upgrade system is really difficult, with Pythagoras with amazing coding potential, here's an easy solution...Make 100% sell back for items....That way you'll get the lower tiered items early on, and sell them accordingly when you'll have enough for the high tier ones. Otherwise, what's the point of making 200+ when people will only be buying like 30 of them. The 30 being the tier 5 items straight, and the highest elemental tiers straight. Even with level caps, it doesn't mean very much to but something for your current game, if it slows down your overall total perfect mage.

But ya. Two things regardless of how the item system is need to be done, or made to do the same function.

1. Not force people to get polar stats by requiring Essence for an Essence item, or Power for a Power item , or Stamina for a Stamina item. My solution - Don't require any stat limitations. Only level limitations.

2. Some sort of reason to get the low tier items. Since clearly tier one is worse than tier four or five, there is no reason to get tier one, unless you make it so it's easier to get to tier five now by letting me upgrade into it.

The way I see an upgrade system would be let's say a tier 5 item costs 1000 to buy straight. Allow that option, however make it so you can buy a tier one item for 100 gold. Then upgrade to tier two for 200 gold. Then upgrade to tier three for two hundred more, then tier four for another 200, and finally tier five for 300, making it so the overall price of buying it straight, and upgrading along the way is the same price. This is assuming tier five, and 1000 for a tier five item. If it's four tiers or costs more you can make it however, that was just an example. This ensures all items are being used. At the very least, 100% sell back, and you can pretty much do the same method, except yourself instead of the computer doing it for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:04 pm

I will never offer a test run to any of you again because of this thread dragon. How can I possible trust people after what you have done while I was away this weekend in this thread?

Let alone that I will never actually voluntarily play with killl again for his over the top verbal abuse towards me in that test run I can handle anything you throw at me personally dragon because I both respect what you have to say and you respect what I have to say. Which makes conversations between us even in disagreements rather easy to do.

However I ran a test run with a limited amount of people. I told you at the start that this test run was for two purposes only. First to test if the Items where working, I needed to know if in general all the items requirements where working, if they equipped to the proper places, if the bonus's they give where actually showing up. And second I needed to know if the quest system was working, if when multiple people take the quest they all still work. Guess what none of those goals was accomplished except by myself while you guys argued over balance issues and decided that I sucked and all the work I did was "shit". I don't care about balance issues in test runs, to be honest requirements may not even go into the game, however the fact that I can do it made me put it in the test run just to see if it worked.

Now I need to explain to Jay.J and the rest of the community to understand something here in response to this thread. Dragonheart, you are taking many issues out of the test run that I was extremely nice to even do in the first place and turning them into your agenda to create a new item upgrade system to match your diagram, hell I can understand you put a little work into your diagram and you don't want that to go to waste but seriously in the test run that I ran with you I was required to stress to you multiple times during the game and you did not understand then and now I am forced to explain to the entire community on a whole that the Balance issues presented by a test run is a totally mute point and should never ever be considered in your general opinion of MM&M.

I have put alot of my own time into this over the past week. Pyth has now put alot of work into MM&M again over the past week, something that i wanted to avoid, to prevent him from taking on to much of a burden and not becoming aggravated with coding for you guys, but now hes devoting his weekend to creating an upgrade system to show dragon the linearity of such a system, neither Pyth nor Myself truly believe that an upgrade system will be even remotely liked by you guys when you actually see how it has to be to fit into the save/load feature of the game. Now listen.... If we are totally serious about this upgrade system that you want your going to have to learn to code a better save/load feature and get that coding to me, I welcome all help by you guys on top of your suggestions.

In the End I'm still putting out this next release, Many things still need to be done about it including complete balance re hauls but thats the last phase when all the framework is laid out. I am going to put this last one out because I want to stress to Three different people that I come through on my promises, when I say something to Pyth, Zync or Sinister they will know from experience that i come through when I say I will.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:19 pm

You could always just use my alternative suggestion....Instead of an upgrade system, have 100% sellback - so you get tier one, and when you got enough for tier two...you sell it and get it. Sometimes simple solutions are better than mad-pro coding >.>

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:21 pm

I agree, and the idea of requirements is a passive upgrade system as well, well with level requirements anyways.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:24 pm

Ya...Level requirements + 100% sellback = Upgrade system. I don't like the idea of stat requirements though, I've said why 2 posts ago...

On an unrelated note: When do you expect release? 1 week? 2 weeks? A few days? I have no idea how far you are.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:27 pm

I apologize if I offended you or belittled your work, as that was not my intention. Also, you don't have to use my suggestion AT ALL. It's just an idea that I thought had some merit.

The reason I made this thread is because we didn't have much time to talk in-game and we were both confused about what the other was saying. On top of that, killll was ranting like mad and pissing all of us off. (Hence why you don't test with killll.) So, I made a thread to discuss everything. No offense was meant, and I'm not trying to be pushy. I just want to discuss how all of this is going to work.
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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:34 pm

kk well sure i can explain a bit about that. Currently Im going under the assumption that this will be 7.2 for the reasons that everyone wants the nature element in 8.0. As far as how long till this release is out, well we have two more things to do. First is wait to see if pyth actually comes up with a better system, I am not one to rule out that possibility he said he would work on it and if he comes up with anything good he will tell me. Second is the balance and artwork issue. Firstly Balance takes awhile, I have not even begun to work on balancing the new stuff, I have set everything at specific rates so that I have a base system to work off of later, everything has a specific progression that I can come up with off the top of my head instead of constantly having to dig through my notebooks for proper balance levels of everything.

Once The balance phase starts it could take a day or ten depending on how much time I put into it. I welcome help in this area by anyone. Its all well and good to offer suggestions on how things should be done but in the end no matter what system is used for the game the items themselves will be the same no matter what right? I mean the only difference is the viewpoint at which people create it. If someone has a good solution for balance like a spread sheet showing all possible items and each stat that each item will have with tiered sorting for easy comparison of multiple items for balancing reasons then please get in contact with me somehow.

After balancing is done I need to work on artwork. Thats tricky because it could go many ways and I am not exactly great with art let alone creating icons, if anyone knows how to do that getting unique artwork would be great but if not then we need to start gettign some suggestions on artwork.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:40 pm

Aren't there 255 items in WC3? Just use standard artwork for now, and we can suggest changes as necessary. That's the LEAST of the problems.

Btw, I was just thinking. I commented that it would take me all day just to type out all of the items for a tier system like I suggested. I don't even want to imagine actually MAKING those items and trying to keep them balanced. That would probably be 10-20 hours of work.

Pythagoras working on a new way to do an upgrade system is good. If he needs any ideas, I have a number of different ones to offer. He always sounds pessimistic when I suggest things, but I'm sure he can code the stuff I'm thinking of. (He's a really pro coder.)
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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:55 pm

Keep it simple is my only real suggestion for balance. I don't really want to do a spreadsheet. Lol.

Artwork...For now, make all staffs the same thing. All boots the same thing. All armors the same thing etc. Maybe take the effort to make it different for Elemental items, but you can work on the artwork later as it doesn't actually effect anything.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:15 pm

I honestly don't have any real conception for what this item system will look like. And that is not because I'm too stupid to understand. It is because I need to actually see what is going on. It's great that you all are offering suggestions... but it feels like we're critiquing things that haven't happened yet. It's really a fruitless endeavor in the end.

I mean by that that it might be better to see and experience the item system and ideas that Rhys is working with rather than throwing out a bunch of "you shoulds" at the guy who is using his free time to help out. Also not saying that new ideas aren't useful, but rather that at this stage, it feels pointlessly nit picky.

Do you have any idea how disheartening it is to hear that your ideas should be scrapped before they are even tested out?

Maybe that's not what is going on, but from an outside uninformed opinion, that's what it sounds like.

Okay... why the hell do people think that they can find perfection without testing out a ton of not-perfect options first. I mean, ignoring the fact that perfection is IMPOSSIBLE to find no matter how you look at it... especially here... NO ONE is every going to agree on what's best. We see that with the bitching about water. Yes, this is a tirade, and yes, I am bringing my own personal essence/annoyance into the picture at the moment, but this kind of a thing just pisses me right the hell off. Seriously... suspend your disbelief for just a little bit and maybe... just maybe allow some changes to be made before you guys start on your uber bitch-fest.

Okay, now that that is out of the system...

Apologies for offending anyone. But, seriously... relax. Give things some time to grow and mature before prematurely cutting them down.

Points to anyone who can guess where this tirade/anger stems from Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:39 pm

I didn't think it was that serious. At least not in the way Aqua makes it seem.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:58 pm

The thing about an upgrade system is that it's a hassle to implement, you have to index everything with pointers to everything else. Luckily with my recent experiments with my CSCC&D system i've discovered something that makes indexing object ID's a breeze. So once i get around to coding it, it will be plug and play, of course plugging will take hours, but it should play just fine after that.

The reason 255 is the limit is that one byte is all the save/load system allocates in the bitstring per item. Upgrade dummy items shouldn't actually take away from that total, i wasn't thinking too deeply about it during that test, but upgrade dummy item creation is still just a long plugging process.

Even if you can't code in JASS and can't even trigger in GUI, just try making 10 items with different tooltips that describe stats and then try making dummy items to represent the item you actually buy to upgrade, then multiply that by 20, and you'll have a general feeling of just how annoying it is to add items.

@ Aqua, I appreciate the sentiment, and the way it is delivered, tirades ftw.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:01 pm

Basically, I saw the other system and didn't think it was achieving it's maximum potential. I had a cool idea, so I presented it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


@Rhys: I'm glad you respect my opinion, and I respect yours as well. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I disrespect you, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way sometimes. We can always present our arguments in a logical fashion and don't fall back on doing things "just because". Most of the time we come to a good compromise, but when we don't it's your decision as the leader. I'll live with it eventually even if I bitch about it for a while. (You should probably just tune that out.)

I'm basically trying to say that it's your decision. But, I would like to put in my 2 bits wherever possible and sometimes I really think I'm right and therefore argue a bit too much. I guess I'll be patient and see what you have to offer, then suggest ways to improve it instead of starting from scratch. (Although I personally would have done that with the current items instead of just wiping them out. You could simply modify and balance them massively with some new additions.)


@Pythagoras: Ahh, I was confused about the dummy upgrade items counting towards the limit. I couldn't for the life of me figure that one out, but I just assumed you were smarter and went with it.


Edit: Woo, I'm "Godlike" now!
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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:04 pm

It's not about upgrading really...it's about not having 4 useless tiers and skipping ahead to the last one while saving up.

If upgrading is a hassle...even with Pyths apparently brilliant discovery that will make it a breeze, just a long one, why not just stick with 100% sell back...With level restrictions it has the same purpose and effects.

Why even make an upgrade system if you can get the same desired effect for less work? Besides polish....I see no reason to. Though, I guess polish is always good.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:10 pm

100% sell back means that theres no way to "lose" your total gold value except potions. Even if you switch from a tier 4 type 1 to a tier 4 type 2, whereas with an upgrade system you get locked into your items, just not a basis of tier.

If i have some spare time tomorrow i'll do the upgrade system, tonight i have some stuff to do though.

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:14 pm

Quote :
100% sell back means that theres no way to "lose" your total gold value except potions. Even if you switch from a tier 4 type 1 to a tier 4 type 2, whereas with an upgrade system you get locked into your items, just not a basis of tier.

If i have some spare time tomorrow i'll do the upgrade system, tonight i have some stuff to do though.

I fail to see what's wrong with that....Considering it's a save/load game, and you can just have a code that has the gold to buy the gear you want before the game starts...The closest thing to a problem I see is swapping gear mid-game, but how is that even a problem? It adds strategy to the game if anything.

If I'm missing something or it's just an arbitrary choice, fill me in because I can't seem to think of a reason why that matters :\

On an unrelated note: All the Bold/Quote/Italics etc. buttons are missing from me. Anyone know what happened Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:58 pm

I don't see a problem with 100% sellback either. It solves the problem.

Also, does anyone like any of my suggestions for any part of the item progression? I especially like the thing about having 2 sets of Elemental Items, so that one helps the left half of the spells, (Q/W/A/S/Z) and the other one helps the right half. (E/R/D/F/X) That way you can customize what spells you want to boost and how. I.E. Staff boosts Q/Z or the other staff boosts R/X, Garment boosts W or the other one boosts E, Accessory boosts A or the other one boosts D, Boots boost S or the other one boosts F. (Just a rough example.)


And lastly, my icons are fine Jay. Just use the code for now. ([b], [quote="_____"], [i] respectively)
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Primary Move: Fire nova / Fire Orb

PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:11 pm

Then wind would get nerfed...Becuz 2 peaices of gear Buff suffo..And also i like the way it is now..Element gear shouldn't change imo
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Dragonheart91
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Level: 1
Primary Move: Cursed Waves (pwned much?)

PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:23 pm

But on the upside, you would have 5 spells buffed on every element instead fo like 3-4. Besides, if Suffocation really needed that much buffing from equipment, it could all be given by one piece.
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killll
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Registration date : 2008-09-06

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Level: 1
Primary Move: Fire nova / Fire Orb

PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:27 pm

I see but that would cuz so mage balancing issues that most of us aren't use to like

Having to get 2 diffrent items for fire nova/ Fire orb buff instead of gettin a hp item..
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Dragonheart91
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Number of posts : 2357
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Level: 1
Primary Move: Cursed Waves (pwned much?)

PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:33 pm

Hmm, sounds like strategic balancing and decision making to me. Making difficult choices is practically the definition of strategy.
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Jay.J
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Primary Move: Moderate

PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:20 am

I don't know what killll is saying.

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killll
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Number of posts : 414
Registration date : 2008-09-06

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Level: 1
Primary Move: Fire nova / Fire Orb

PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:22 am

okay so fire staff gives fireorb and fire nova buffs on one item and that's what i'm use to so i won't be use to my fire nova doing 105 less dmg just becuz i didn't get the accesory to do it becuz i needed some hp O.o see?
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Jay.J
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Location : Toronto

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Primary Move: Moderate

PostSubject: Re: Time for an EPIC Item discussion.   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:29 am

So you're saying balancing isn't worth change and that you're afraid of change because you have to change your strategy? What's the point of development if you don't like balance and don't want to get used to new things? Play the old ones then...

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