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 Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses

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Models For Boss's Should Be?
Custom Made from scratch
25%
 25% [ 2 ]
Use Pre Existing Model in World Editor
50%
 50% [ 4 ]
Use Other Peoples Models
25%
 25% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 8
 

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Rhys
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PostSubject: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:36 pm

1.) Custom Made from scratch
I'm not against learning how to do this, however it will take time and seriously divert any work I do from the map to texturing, which means the map is on hold as long as I work on the Boss's. This is something Im not keen on doing. So If we all want this I suggest someone who is good with Model texturing speak up now.


2.) Use Pre-Existing Model in World Editor
We can always use a Generic Model from the World Editor, the Downside is maybe a dullness factor in that its going to be something seen in many other maps. I'm not against this as its a easy and quick way to deal with it and we can always go back to change them later.


3.) Use Other Peoples Models
There are various communities where players who create things submit them for use to the general modding community, of course using there artwork implies we must give full credit where its due which would mean wed have to put there name on the loading screen. I'm not against this because we can solve the issue with #1 above and it is actually just as easy as #2 is above. The downside is negligible as no one reads the loading screen. The main downside is that with 8 different elements to have boss's for thats 8 new models which is roughly 300k data more which would bring MM&M to 1.7MB in size and of course increases load time by a few seconds maybe.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:42 pm

We don't have to give model credit in the loading screen, just a section in quests would be enough IMO.

But yeah, something a little more interesting than standard WC3 would be nice. We do have the file size to spare anyway. (Only 1.7 after models? My understanding is that WC3 allows 4 mb maps. We aren't even close.)


P.S. Does this mean we should start discussing bosses for the near future? I really want bosses in MM&M to be something unique and not just a generic hard fight. They should be akin to the things in Impossible Bosses, or even more unique than that.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:44 pm

Impossible Bosses is a VERY good thing to base bosses off of. It's not just strong = win, it's skill = win. Base boss ideas and like...design off of that. Not saying to copy it - but they way they work and such.

I think start off with models from WC3...It's Alpha. Get custom ones when you can either do it yourself, theres nothing to work on, or we have space to have the custom models once everything is done and such.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:46 pm

well I was talking to DarkDjinn and Jay.J and apparently we where all on the same page as far as where we where going to go with boss's and quests and such. Which got me working on the quest structure coding. I had a few issues at first with adding in the Item Reward Coding but after a push in teh right direction by Pyth I managed to actually add Items to the Rewards for Questing. Of course no quest has been altered to include items as rewards.

The point being is that with Items now being an Option for rewards in quests we can now input Boss's Via Questing and give specific Items as rewards, even items not Available in Shops, IE UNIQUE ITEMS.

So Yes Boss's Are a hot topic for the next few releases as well as Unique Items. If anyone has any suggestions I would like to ask that we start up discussions in the forum suggestions thread for both of these.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:04 pm

Lol, time to bump my super old boss topic that I brought from the old forum. IMO, my boss idea was incredibly unique.

WC3 skins are fine for now, and could even be fine forever. But, interesting skins might be a nice addition in the future.

Also, I think you should implement some war quests that do things to impact the war before you start doing bosses. (Like having creep upgrades based on quest completion instead of, or in addition to the normal by time progression. Just one example, you could do countless things.) Those are more important IMO, and that would give you more practice making interesting quests.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:16 am

so I'm guessing -sm or -usm are being ignored? along w/ war end functions? Bosses are cool but I really think these need to be added first. I'm sure it wouldn't take that long to write a trigger that goes off at 1.5 hours into game and has paladin charge middle w/ friends and so when -usm is entered it runs the -anns trigger and sets the mages at lev 20 for sm 10. The ideas have already been discussed and they seriously aren't that hard to throw in so could you take like 10 minutes to add them?
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:47 am

Im actually having some issues with that, if its so easy you can give it a try because it certainly is not a 10 minute fix.

I do not ignore your requests diaster, In past events regarding us two I have done just about everything you've brought to me, do not assume I am so talented as to simply go into the map and change it on a whim. Each system in this map is its own unique structure and they all intertwine to read off each other and create the game, its astonishingly complex and changing -anns mode even the name to -sm is a daunting task the requires alot of work. Now if zync where here he could simply do that because he knows exactly where everything is, I have a good amount of this map logged in my head but I do not have it all yet and I am trying my best.

Boss's Are something that I can do now, a month ago I would not have even been able to do this but Im learning, so relax on the -sm, and I will look into the timer trigger for the NPC's.

On a side note diaster I think -ct mode is fixed, we have to test the changes I made.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:53 am

of course...everything what jass is so much more complex...ya..thinking back to how a simple name change from light to holy fucked everything up...I can understand...ntm it probably uses a bunch of variables to keep track of the mages level stats etc...maybe I should bother pyth about it...
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:02 am

bosses= cool,

but

there's a lot of other minor things to do...

majorly some bug fixes, balancing, som add-ins, and npc hero remixes.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:19 pm

kuro wrote:
there's a lot of other minor things to do...

majorly some bug fixes, balancing, som add-ins, and npc hero remixes.

I.e. removing firewall teamkilling? That'd be a wonderful first step.

Bosses would be cool but I'm wondering where exactly they'd come into play. They'd be great for giving the RPG side of it an actual RPG feel because they'd presumably be hard enough to require team play etc. I suppose the next question is where would they go? Most islands are pretty small as is and thus it'd be difficult to just throw in some random boss fights. Although, what you could do is start off with a single boss fight on a new just for boss island then expand that if it becomes successful. I mean... why try to implement a boss for each element if it's not successful? Just create one boss, see how it goes then implement others based on the success/failure of the first one.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:44 pm

The implementation of bosses and/or a real RPG side requires a new mode.

-NW (No War)

This would force people to do questing and RPG instead of the war, and would be necessary for groups attempting to take down a boss.

It could also be -RPG or any other acceptable command.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:48 pm

Or...Stay neutral during the war.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:46 am

i don't think a new mode is necessary. I do think that aquaascension has a good idea though, make an island for a Single boss and see how it works out. If it does work out we can possibly create some triggers to make a specific Island Boss after certain events. Of course this is all just theory.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:51 am

The thing is, people could misclick, and people could intentionally join the war for the free +2 SP knowning no one else would oppose them. That is why you need a mode to guarantee that questing happens. You might also need one to make sure no jerks go questing and mess up the war teams.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:25 pm

Who cares? Let them get a free +2sp, they miss out on the boss. You can't end the game that fast and be able to get to the boss in time. Once they start the boss, everyone would be locked out, and locked in.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:45 pm

Yes, but the people fighting the boss would lose out on one player. What if you were counting on having a perfect team of your 5 friends to beat the boss, and then one of them misclicks on war. Now, you have to remake the game and sit through all the loading again. This is a situation that I could see happening often.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:47 pm

Or you just go out and do the other 12 or so quests while he finishes up the war....It's a non-issue. He misses out on some questing, you get some gold/sp, he gets some more SP. Whatever.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:09 pm

I don't see why this bothers you, it is simply an easy to code convenience. If you want to get a full house 12 people vs a boss, you should have the right to do so as the host. If you want to have a full 6v6 war, you should also be able to do that. Why are you so against it? I know it would discourage me from hosting if morons kept ruining the game mode I wanted to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:55 pm

Because...the people joing the game should also have the option. You just put in your title "MM&M BOSSES!!!" Then they come and choose neutrality. If someone you NEED decides to join the war you quest. The fact that it's already there...and you just want a code to avoid...well stupid people is pointless. If they're stupid they won't help much for bosses anyway. I'm not against it, but it's a waste of space, and code. Just like -ct, because it's already able to be done by manipulating the system.

Why add a feature when you already have it? All you're doing is "Idiot proofing" it. Why would you want an idiot on your team for a tournament, or when Bossing? Adding unneeded code for idiots is...well establishing idiots should play the game. If anything...make a command like -war, so if you misclick, you can quest again.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:57 pm

why not make it that typing -war toggles whether you join the war or not??
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:00 pm

Quote :
If anything...make a command like -war, so if you misclick, you can quest again.
Quote :
why not make it that typing -war toggles whether you join the war or not??

Problem solved?

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:01 pm

O my bad didn't see that in your post, but ya wasn't that actually planned to be done before?
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:09 pm

Sigh, I think this would be an extremely helpful idiot proofing measure, but for no apparent reason Jay is strongly against it. I can easily see huge annoyance coming from not having a simple feature, and I see no reason NOT to add it.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:11 pm

That's the whole problem. It's IDIOT proofing. Why would you want an idiot on your team? Whether it be a normal game, a tournament game, or on a boss run?

It's code for a non-issue. I realize we aren't anywhere near it, but it's code that adds unneeded space. It's work that the makers have to do when they could do something USEFUL. Whether it be MM&M related or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/16): Bosses   Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:16 pm

You can't always get 12 players you "know", and you cannot stop pubbies from being idiots... Also, the code space is negligible so that is a non-issue as well. It should only take a couple of minutes to disable the war or make it mandatory with a trigger. Your strongly against something that could save countless amounts of hassle and has no downsides.
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