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Jay.J
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PostSubject: NPC Hero Changes   Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:06 pm

I think the NPC hero's need a change. Currently, high level games take them down pretty fast, while low level games take far too long to kill them even with HUGE pushes. Also they are a little bit bland right now. Killing them only gives the advantage of one less creep, which is good - but I think it could be more. My suggestion is to give each NPC hero one of each - an aura, a skill and a passive, as well as change the stats of the NPC heros around as to accomodate for some changes, and help end lower level games faster while leaving higher level games at generaly the same pace.

Note: All information is taken from eastside 7.13a

Current NPC hero's

Ranger
HP - 2950
MP - 1290 (Note:West side Ranger has 1590 mana, has 20 more essence)
Damage - 111-167 (139 avg)
Armor - 2 (+8 )


Gold/Silver Knight

HP - 5125
MP - 885
Damage - 82-138 (110 avg)
Armor - 12 (+8 )

Paladin
HP - 4750
MP - 2625
Damage - 90-130 (110 avg)
Armour - 8 (+8 )


Alright now. Here's what I would like to change it to, reasoning will follow after.

My NPC hero's suggestion

Ranger
HP - 2950
MP - 900
Damage - 139-139 (139 avg)
Armor - 0 (+4)
Skills: Frost arrow (25% Atk/Move slow, 9 mana), Command Aura (+25% damage, 900AoE), 30% Evasion (Attack only)
AI: Attack each enemy once with frost arrows on auto cast. Attack heros in red HP or those attacking her.
Other: +15% attack speed of current

Explanation: Mana is reduced, because she doesn't need it - we don't want an unneeded mana fountain for Ice. Damage becomes precise now, she is an archer after all, armor reduced to help low level games where troops are the main source of damage. Her AI makes her attack each troop/hero once to slow down the whole army and evenly distribute damage, which goes well with the Knight's cleave. She get's command aura as her aura, because support damage is her main focus. Evasion, because Crit will not trigger with an Orb effect/Attack modifier. Also more of an effect when you kill her since they lose out on the damage aura.

Gold/Silver Knight
HP - 3500
MP - 900
Damage - 50-170 (110 avg)
Armor - 6 (+4)
Spell resistance: 30%
Skills: Roar (+50% dmg for 15 seconds, 15 second CD, 100 mana), Endurance aura (+10% attack/move 800AoE), Cleave 35% in 200AoE in front.
AI: Attack creeps, nothing special. No special treatment to heroes.

Explanation: Armor is reduced to help end lower level games faster as troops are the main source of damage, while not really effecting high level games much. The HP is reduced, however the total EHP (to spells) remains similar. This again, helps end lower level games faster, while keeping high level games the same. Also it gives a bit more reason to kill the Knight over the Paladin right away. Mana made to 900, no real reason, but allows 9 casts of Roar without mana regen factored. Cleave give, so it becomes more of a counter pusher, Critical goes well with Cleave. Roar because it seems fitting. Killing him has more of an effect since he kills troops so easily, and they lose out on the Aura he provides. Damage becomes more random, since he's a knight and the damage makes sense to be not as precise. Also, don't want it too close because of cleave.

Paladin
HP - 4000
MP - 2625
Damage - 90-130 (110 avg)
Armour - 4 (+4)
Spell Resistance: 25%
Skills: Holy Light (Same as current), Devotion Aura +4 armor, Bash (Same as current)
AI: Heal heroes when orange, heal troops when red, Attack anyone channeling within boundaries of attack (for bash chance), attack creeps otherwise.

Explanation: Armor is lowered, Devotion Aura is lowered to help lower level games end faster while leaving high level games relatively the same. His EHP is higher (to spells) then before, but not by that much. Damage and mana left the same. Pretty much the same, except slight AI changes, armor reduction and spell resitance with compensated HP loss.


Whether my numbers are taken or not, that doesn't really matter. The point is to reduce armor of NPC heros, give them skills, and accomodate for Low/High level games without changing it based on average level. This is done by leaving the EHP similar, but the way damage is best done to them differently, which is what the main difference is in High and Low level games.

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Last edited by Jay.J on Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:29 pm

I would suggest 500 mana on the Knight. He isn't a spellcaster after all. But, other than that I agree.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:06 pm

That's kind of low, one Kiss + Absorb and he can't cast anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:17 pm

Then increase the mana cost of Roar. Either way, I don't think he should be able to cast it more than 4-5 times before being out of mana. I would say triple Roars mana cost.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:38 pm

I would personally prefer at 1.5 hours the paladin and friends charge out so the war has to end at a set point, and people are forced to re-host to 1 spread the map if they wanna war again, 2 make slow games that ruins the game for you first time playing dmg to a min. Upon the feature being added these changes seem good though I agree w/ dragon in that he should only be able to roar a few times.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:42 pm

They can still charge but I think these changes should still be implemented.

Hmm, alright, lower mana on the Knight, however still enough to roar after an Ice mage is through with him - 600 mana.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:55 pm

The Knight has had cleave for as long as I've played this map.

Also, where did you get the idea that Critical Strike won't trigger when attacks are effected by orbs or attack modifiers?

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:45 am

DotA mechanics thread. And Knight doesn't have cleave...does he? Because it's not all that noticable. What's the current %?

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:50 am

It is true though, I have tested it countless times in WC3. I had no DoTA mechanics thread to tell me, I just mess with stuff until I learn every trick in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:53 am

Actually, wait. Let me rephrase - It won't work with moves like Frost arrows/Searing arrows etc. but it will work with...Lifeleech and such, even if they are considered Orbs. I don't know exactly what it is...But I know Crit will not work when say, Drow is using Frost arrows (on the same attack) or Clinkz is using Searing arrows (again on the same attack). I think when Crit activates, the arrow attacks just don't go on that attack or something.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:00 am

Jay.J wrote:
DotA mechanics thread. And Knight doesn't have cleave...does he? Because it's not all that noticable. What's the current %?

Its the only reason that pushes fail so often so easily. The knight just wears the creeps down over time and then kills them all off.

Its a 25% cleave in a 150 AoE.

I havent seen any indication that critical strike will not function with orb effects or arrow type abilities. In fact I specifically remember instances in which the Drow Ranger in DotA has used a Buriza and Frost Arrows at the same time to cause disasterous amounts of damage before an enemy had a chance to get out of range. I could be wrong, but it is unlikely.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:09 am

Intresting on the Knight with Cleave. Well, my version is buffed...Regardless. Drow usualy attacks incredibly fast, I mean it does have a high agi growth +36 agility ulti. You might not notice on the exact attack of the crit that it didn't reapply the slow, since they would still be slowed, and the next attack will probably slow them back anyway. It's just on that particular attack it shouldn't trigger - unless I've been lied to for most of the time I've played DotA, and have bad vision Razz. Not saying it's a bad item on Drow though...just the Ranger doesn't even attack fast enough anyway. Regardless, I kind of like Crit on the Knight with cleave and more random damage better than on the precise ranger who will always cleave for the same amount.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:18 am

Nope, Jay and I are correct. I am 100% sure and I have tested this many times.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:57 am

Alright then. I don't see a reason why the threat of burst damage from a crit should be taken away from the archer NPC, whether or not it denies her a single shot of a sub-par slow arrow.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:03 am

Actually, sometimes the slow arrow takes priority. I am not sure what situations trigger which, but the arrow effect takes priority and cancels the crit in some situations. Test it for yourself. I think DoTA is special in letting the crit take priority.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:41 am

Because of the new AI of the Archer. With higher cleave (AoE and %) for the knigt, the archers job is to also soften up everything by attacking each unit individualy once, which will also have the entire army slowed, unless there is a hero that is in red. It doesn't have to be evasion, but I couldn't really think of another passive.

The knight seems more fitting to it anyway, with his more ranging damage, compared to a precise archer. Adds more variance, that is minimal in gameplay though. Cleave + Crit is just better IMO. If you can think of a more suiting passive, then feel free to suggest it.

Also Dragon...are you telling me that an Orb effect...such as Lifesteal, then Critting with PA doesn't give me HP? Because I'm positive the whole point of that build is to get burst amounts of heal. It's a certain type of orb effect that doesn't let it trigger. I just forget the Lingo.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:52 am

Yeah, I forgot the lingo too that is why it came out wrong. Orbs are fine, but autocast-on-attack stuff makes everything fail. Outside of DOTA, I have never seen anything crit with a frost arrows like ability turned on.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:40 pm

orb affects: fire orb (splash), frost orb (slow), lightning orb (dmg to summons) passive bonus that is always constant.
half-orb affects: crit, chance to purge, chance to proc.

orb affects stack with half orb affects; fire arrows ice arrows- idk what they fall under. but they dont stack with one.


i think the revamps are quite good, less hp but more EHP is a good idea.

more abilities are also good- but why does the ranger need evasion? its not going to get attacked most of the time. (unless an MG decides to solo it)

later on, if someone gets creative, lets replace evasion with something else.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:28 pm

I think the suggested abilities are a little excessive, Mainly the Auras, but I do agree with the general idea that this thread is talking about. Ill look around to see what would be good and Ill post any good suggestions I can come up with.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:00 pm

Well, you could do one active and one passive on Ranger/Knight, and then leave the Paladin alone.

Mainly the things that are being addressed here are the fact that NPC heroes need to survive against 62s but not pwn 20, and that they all need at least one active ability so they do not become just mana fountains for Ice.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:48 pm

I figured with the general nerfing of armour, both on devotion and on the heros they needed something. I personaly think that the auras are pretty weak, but they do make an impact and give a reason to kill the Ranger and Knight over the Paladin. More often than not - people will kill the Paladin as soon as the have the option. The ranger is SOMETIMES killed if, and only if the mage can solo her, or atleast if you have a good ally and you both can kill her. The knight is rarely killed unless all your creeps are attacking him and you figure you might as well get him as well.

Towers already have auras, but are completely biased in who can take them down. Earth, Dark, Ice and Fire (From best to worst) take down towers sooo easily, while Water, Lightning, Wind and Light find it VERY difficult to take down towers. Water would be up there, but with feedback, and mana sheild elementals die easily.

NPC heros on the other hand aren't as biased so I think the aura's should go to them over the other towers if more auras were to be implemented. I do want to note however, that the AI or the pathing was changed for troops. They no longer attack towers, because they are out of vision or something. They just don't attack towers ever, and if you can't take down towers alone, they just don't go down especially since even chipping at them, they regen because you'll probably get pushed back since the other team has tower damage support.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:37 pm

On the note of the towers, we had alot of discussion about how they were weak and not even worth killing. Now, they are very powerful and very hard to kill. Since their damage is so high, maybe towers could have a little bit of an hp nerf.


P.S. What part of dark makes it good at killing towers? Infernals? And yeah, those four elements suck against towers. Wind can do a bit with a good Vortex, but not often.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:01 pm

One Infernal can easily kill a tower. 2 Absolutely rape them. If you Infernal spam, they all die in a few seconds. If you don't book swap - you can use simple Mages as well, and even Skeleton warriors, all of which will tank and be able to attack the towers easily. But ya, Infernal spam > Towers. Rhys even knows..I beat his team in under 6 minutes with it lol. Though admitadly, the teams weren't that fair.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:07 pm

Crit + Cleave, in my opinion is a bad idea. The reason for this is because with each crit, the cleave damage is also increased. So if the cleave is at 40% with a 100 damage, the unit at the attack takes 100, all others take 40. With a 2x crit, it's all doubled. The knight is freaking killer at raping normal units as is... don't buff him.

I usually find that taking out the Knight is a prime strategy. It makes the game much easier to push/win and I haven't played many games where the pally falls before the knight. Also, I remember when the archer used to run out on her own many times. In those days, she'd be murdered easily. Why people don't aim for the ranger is because she's in the back and difficult to kill especially with the pally healing her and creeps spawning so quickly.

I suppose roar is okay, but again it'll buff the knight's damage and thus buff his cleave attack... what about a howl of terror spell? Neutralize creep damage unless you can dispel, which would be a buff to water.

But yes, Jay is correct about the auto cast attack spells taking precedence over critical strikes. Play the map herocraft and try out a bunch of different spell combinations like that. The strongest one that I have made is a damage aura + an inner fire spell + critical strike for crits around 1k or more.

Oh and killing the ranger is a wonderful strategy but the problem is she's too damn difficult to kill. The reward far underweighs the risk.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC Hero Changes   Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:42 pm

I made his damage erratic to counter the Cleave + Crit. His average damage is still the same, however his minimum damage is much lower. The Crit can be like 1.5x. He apparently already has cleave, and I'm just making it slightly more AoE. The Paladin and Knight fall at generaly the same pace. So usualy you just get whoever is beign targeted by creeps IMO. I always go for the Archer first if I can, unless they're up and can kill me easily. Otherwise I'll always go for her after towers. No archers hurts the team a lot.

I do think though that with the random daamge, the Cleave + Crit wouldn't be too strong.

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