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 Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements

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Ultimates on Mspell Books Should Require?
Both Ultimates from the Combining Elements
38%
 38% [ 3 ]
Logical Skills
62%
 62% [ 5 ]
No Skills, Just elements
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 8
 

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Rhys
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PostSubject: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:39 pm

Both Ultimates from the Combining Elements
This will require you to have both elemental ultis from the two books that are combined to make the MBOOK, cursed waves would require Inferno/SeaMorph Sinkhole would require EarthenSkin/SeaMorph and so on and so on



Logical Skills
This would attempt to find a skill from each element that most closely combines into the new ulti, sinkhole would be geyser/fissure cursed waves would be carrionswarm/crushing wave and so on.


No Skills, Just elements
No skills required




Also this change will take place at the new code reset which will most likely be on version 8.0, 8.0 will also be the planned version to have the new Nature element which is the main reason to do the code reset.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:58 pm

well all the mbooks need to have something in common. e.g. right now earth/water needs you to get earthen skin and sea elemental morph.

if we make it have no requirement, everyones going to be selling half the SP they would have used to get both C spells.

if water/earth requires fissure and geyser, but dark water requires carrion swarm and crushing wave, dark/water is at an sp advantage because carrion swarm takes less requirements and costs less SP.

i guess we dont NEED to have it require the ultimates, but it will be a REALLY hard job to balance out 36 mbooks and their requirements, as people will complain how light/dark requires holy nova (18sp) and a soul reaper(9sp) or something while dark/water requires so much less input.

it makes sense that you need the ultimates, if you get the ultimate of your branch it means you have mastered the element, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:27 pm

Both ultimates, easiest way to balance. Currently, I think the M-spells (besides Dark/Fire) are stronger (maybe not by much) than other "C" spells, or atleast have very good usage and synergy within their spellbook. M-books already usually have better synergy within the book, so it should have somewhat of a disadvantage (besides the cost). On a side note, I think M-books have a pretty high cost, and should be lowered.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:23 pm

I like the idea of logical skills, and to balance this you could make the M-spell require researching to be learned. For M-spells who have low cost requirements, they could cost more, and vice versa.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:30 pm

If its possible to do i like dragon's idea, perhaps setting it up so that the total number of skill points adds up to to same for each spell, or making them reflect how useful the spell is.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:02 pm

well it seems so far that option two, the logical skill requirement is the most poipular, personally balance wise i think it needs to be the first option, however that doesnt mean thats what is going to happen.


I agree that each mbook should technically require the same amount of SP to get the ulti, which is very difficult to do btw since differant elements have differant sp requirements to get through and master. We can however say that you are required to have differant level requirements, for instance for dark/water i could say you require a lvl 3 carrion swarm and a level 2 crushing wave, this is just an example.


Also having differant SP costs for the ultis may be a good thing as well, for instance cursed waves is generally looked at as a sucky ulti (i think its amazing at chasing though) however since it has a comparitevly low sp cost you could argue that it is currently THE BEST MBOOK ULTI FOR ANNS MODE. WHile in Normal mode it would suck.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:13 pm

It is difficult to balance -anns mode though, sort of like Dota trying to balance -em mode.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:37 pm

DotA could easily balance em mode, they choose not to though. Why would they? They have actual money tournaments and it's recognized by gaming institues as a balanced game worthy of league play for normal mode. There's no point balancing for em though because it's for casual purposes, balance is only worthwhile if people will notice it.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:13 pm

I am not saying they cannot, and I agree that they could if they wanted. What I am suggesting is that it is difficult to balance two game modes and would take them extra work to do so. (Hence why they don't.)

Basically, items and spells all need to be priced differently for both modes, but I believe that would require doubling the stuff unless there is a trigger to change item prices. So, without that that it makes it more difficult. My suggestion would be to balance the cost of things for -anns mode, and balance the power of it for -nm mode. If that makes -anns mode imbalanced, then spells can be triggered to be stronger or weaker for -anns mode, the biggest problem would be the tooltips.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:22 pm

Dragonheart91 wrote:
I am not saying they cannot, and I agree that they could if they wanted. What I am suggesting is that it is difficult to balance two game modes and would take them extra work to do so. (Hence why they don't.)

Basically, items and spells all need to be priced differently for both modes, but I believe that would require doubling the stuff unless there is a trigger to change item prices. So, without that that it makes it more difficult. My suggestion would be to balance the cost of things for -anns mode, and balance the power of it for -nm mode. If that makes -anns mode imbalanced, then spells can be triggered to be stronger or weaker for -anns mode, the biggest problem would be the tooltips.

Changing all the prices seems like it would be a gross waste of resources, both in coding time and in map size. Just increase the gold gained, it has the exact same effect.

Changing tooltips on spells would require additional dummy spells, which would require addition setup in triggers. Again it would be easier to adjust creep or hero statistics than it would be to adjust spells.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:42 pm

fully agree with pyth on this one, youd be basically tripling the amount of item related triggers in a single version.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:45 pm

Ya, too much work, and I still think it can be balanced for both -nm and -anns...the items currently suck. I think with Tiered items, it will be perfectly balanced for both -anns and -nm.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (8/6): M-Book Ulti Requirements   Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:35 pm

agreed, tier items is the way to go and M-spells should require bot z spells or both x spells imo, though I voted logical since I didn't see that choice up there.
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