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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:11 pm

Well considering I didn't like what they did with the show, I'm in with the 5 million others who eventually got the show cancelled. If you really want good shows, I suggest you join the bandwagon, because no matter how good a show might be, if no one watches it, it wont last very long. "The best game is a piece of shit if there's no one to play it." That statement remains true along most media lines. This includes music (3oh!3 is a good example. They went mainstream and a lot of people began to dislike their music. However, they continued because they were getting a better revenue stream).

Fact is, the best shows are the ones that most people watch. That's because with more people watching, there will be more advertisers wanting to advertise to that huge mass of viewers. With more viewers comes more money and with more money comes more episodes. It's really that simple, and the fact that some people prefer to have professional shows be "good" instead of "mass-appealing", they're asking for their show to be cancelled. Lost took the bad route and that's why they had to end it. A 33% drop in viewers over 2 seasons (4-5) is simply unacceptable, which forced the network to say "Wrap it up, guys. You're done."
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:29 pm

That's your problem Sin, you're defining good as popular, which simply isn't true.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:11 pm

Of course, that's why American Idol is so good. It tops the charts every year. Yeah.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:08 pm

Sinister, you do realize that 30 seconds of commercials during the last episode of Lost were worth almost a million dollars? (950.000 to be exact)
Also, it was no canceled, the producers stated that from the beginning they had already planned Lost's finale, and that they were relieved they wouldn't have to come up with something else to make it longer (the main plot was planned from the beginning, not the details).

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Of course, that's why American Idol is so good. It tops the charts every year. Yeah.

Sure... American Idol is top quality... right...

Quote :
Anyway, you're heavily underrating simplicity. You say acting is an art. And? Simple art is bad somehow? Some of the funniest jokes are just one liners or a few sentences. You don't need a whole story behind one joke. Some of the best books and plays are simple in plot but that doesn't make them bad. Children's books for example. Some of the best paintings are very simple. Does adding more strokes to a picture somehow make it better? What about science? The best theories are the more simple. An argument summed up in one line is better than an essay if the effect and message ends up being the same.

Simplicity is elegant.

I know what you mean, Jay, but what I' trying to say really is: Society is already simple enough, don't make it more so.
Also, I do agree that simpler CAN be funny, but I wouldn't call "The Big Lebowski" (Greatest comedy ever) simple. Most comedies tend to have quite extravagant plots for each episode, and "Unique" characters (Maybe stereotypical, like Balki on "Perfect Strangers", or strange, like his cousin Larry).

I know some great stories have simple plots, but they usually have very profound characters, which makes it more complex, really.
Children's books, many/most of them have a profound meaning behind the simplistic story, I don't consider something simple just because the presentation is simple, but I wouldn't jusge someone for doing that.
Regarding your picture comment, I really don't like those simple Neo-whatever (or modernist or whatever it's called) art, with just a green line and a red line.

Science is no art.

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An argument summed up in one line is better than an essay if the effect and message ends up being the same.

I'm not sure I agree. The message might be the same, but not the effect.

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A good show makes a good show.

I'm glad Jay is here, those arguments are not even worth answering.

P.S.: How do I make a quote say someone's name? I forgot.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:11 am

It was cancelled. What sounds better in the press: "Well, they cancelled the (statistically) best show we've got." or "Well, we've been planning to end it at this point from the start anyways."

FOX would look like assholes to their 10 million viewers if they cancelled it. Beyond that, it's one of their best shows statistically, so it'd look like a bad move to all of their underlings. Management in the networks is the government of a nation. They know what they're doing, but they keep things to themselves when it benefits the whole. If there were a nuclear device in the center of the USA that was about to go off in 5 days, do you think that the government would tell us? No, they'd try to handle it themselves and not cause a panic/riots.

Anyways, back on topic: The massive decline in viewers made FOX's management team end it prematurely so they could get their next hit in the works as soon as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:02 am

It says if.

If the message is the same, then the simpler the better.

For paintings, it doesn't matter what it is. Adding another stroke to the Mona Lisa doesn't make it better (even though it's more complex). At times it takes away.

Adding more background to a story doesn't make it better, and again sometimes it takes away.

I don't deny there are good things that are complex, I'm saying that complexity in and of it self doesn't make things any better.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:49 am

Jay.J wrote:
It says if.

If the message is the same, then the simpler the better.

For paintings, it doesn't matter what it is. Adding another stroke to the Mona Lisa doesn't make it better (even though it's more complex). At times it takes away.

Adding more background to a story doesn't make it better, and again sometimes it takes away.

I don't deny there are good things that are complex, I'm saying that complexity in and of it self doesn't make things any better.

I'm saying it does.
Also, you're arguing about an "If", when what I meant was it just can't have the same EFFECT, maybe the message, but not the effect, when the complexity rises.

I believe the Mona Lisa is complex enough as it is, there are even conspiracy theories around it. The point of my comments is to mention the benefits complexity brings, not the amount of it.

Jay.J wrote:
Adding more background to a story doesn't make it better, and again sometimes it takes away.
It's a matter of focus and where it lies; by removing complexity from the background the whole focus of the story is on the characters, which should be very complex.
Also, you say "Add background", I believe you mean like in LoTR, which has a very extensive lore around the Middle Earth; and that is not good complexity, it's the quality of the background that makes it good.
Let's look at Lost, for example. Lost left many mysteries unanswered, but the main story was complete, so although the background has "holes" (in the sense that it's uncertain, not that it has faults) doesn't make it less complex; in fact, it makes it more complex as one tries to fill those holes with his own beliefs, which are sustained by the information given throughout Lost.
That is what I mean by Quality of Complexity over Quantity of Complexity.


Now back to Sinister.
SinisteRing wrote:
It was cancelled. What sounds better in the press: "Well, they cancelled the (statistically) best show we've got." or "Well, we've been planning to end it at this point from the start anyways."
Once again,there was no need to cancel it. It was one of the most expensive TV Shows but it also was one of the most profitable. Again, $950.000 for 30 seconds of commercials.
Also, it was produced by J.J. Abrams (Producer, writer, etc. of a lot of successful shows and movies, including Alias and Mission Impossible), who also wrote and directed the two parts of the Pilot. Sometime after that (Early in Season 1) he left the show to focus on Mission Impossible III and left the other two show runners, Damon Lindelof (Brought by Abrams) and Carlton Cuse (Who started working on it when Abrams left) to work on it but kept producing it.

From IMDB:

Internet Movie Database wrote:
How much is JJ Abrams involved with this show?

The basic answer is not at all any more

When ABC was developing Lost, they approached JJ Abrams, who at the time was producing Alias for the network, to revamp the original proposal. Abrams brought on Damon Lindelof, and the two of them created the premise and characters of Lost. Abrams developed the opening sequence and theme song and developed or co-developed many of the ideas in the show such as flashbacks, and the Hatch. He also wrote and directed the two part pilot. Abrams production company, Bad Robot, continues to produce the show. However, early in season one, Abrams began devoting more and more time to developing Mission Impossible III. At this point Carlton Cuse came on as a show runner with Damon Lindelof, and Abrams stopped having any day to input into the show. His last credited contribution to the show was co-writing the season three premiere "A Tale of Two Cities".


SinisteRing, next time take the time to do a small research on the subject you're writing on or I won't bother to answer at all.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:53 am

Words. Sentences. Arguments.

Ergo Lost loses.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:59 pm

I'm not sure what you're arguing...are you saying you can't have the same effect with a more simple argument/story/joke/anything? Because you definitely can. You can have more of an impact by the simplicity than an elaborate, complex one. Ergo, you can obviously have the same impact.

Unless you're going to try to argue that simple things can never have more of an impact than a complex one, you should give up on this one.

As for the Mona Lisa...that's the point. Adding complexity in and of it self doesn't make anything better. Just because something is complex and happens to be good, doesn't mean it's good because of its complexity. If that were the case, adding more complexity would make it better - which we can clearly see isn't the case.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:17 pm

Quote :
Words. Sentences. Arguments.

Ergo Lost loses.

What?

Quote :
As for the Mona Lisa...that's the point. Adding complexity in and of it self doesn't make anything better. Just because something is complex and happens to be good, doesn't mean it's good because of its complexity. If that were the case, adding more complexity would make it better - which we can clearly see isn't the case.

I'm arguing you consider complexity as just a number, more or less complexity, while I'm saying complexity is an intricate attribute in itself, and when present, it does make things better. Also I'm arguing the different forms complexity takes. While you say Mona Lisa's complexity comes from the amount of strokes, I can argue that it comes from its maker, his cultural importance and his beliefs.

Quote :
I'm not sure what you're arguing...are you saying you can't have the same effect with a more simple argument/story/joke/anything?

With a more complex [insert word here] you need to work harder to reach the meaning, that causes a different effect than if its right in front of you from the beginning.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:23 pm

Intricacy doesn't mean it can't be quantified, at least subjectively. It doesn't matter how you classify the complexity. Does adding more of it make it any better? The answer is probably no.

Quote :
With a more complex [insert word here] you need to work harder to reach the meaning, that causes a different effect than if its right in front of you from the beginning.

Key word is different. It could be a lesser effect, in which case simplicity is better.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:29 pm

It's a different more positive effect.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:30 am

But it isn't always a more positive effect -.-. That's the point.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:00 am

I'm saying it is. I'm saying the whole process of deciphering a complex matter to come to a message gives more beneficial results than just getting the message handed to you.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:25 pm

Yes, I know you're saying that. But that's not the case in reality. It may be the case sometimes, even the majority of times - but it's not always the case. Honestly, you just need to think about your own experiences.

Sometimes a look can be more powerful than an explanation of something, as an example.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:37 pm

Since even you are saying the majority of times it's the case, then you should give me an example of when it's not the case.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:29 pm

I already did -.-

1. A stern look from an authority figure when you do something wrong opposed to a lecture that goes in depth about the philosophy, the consequences etc. of when you do something wrong.

2. Saying, "I love you" and a smile, opposed to an explanation of what one feels for another person.

3. A post with one line explaining something, opposed to a detailed essay which gets a TL;DR response.

4. Or, what we've been talking about TV shows where too much complexity becomes a turn off to the show.

5. In a game, such as MM&M for example - the basic elements were perhaps better for the game, then the overall adding of complexity of Multi-classes and arguably even the fountain.

The reason being is, that sometimes more is less when more means that the efficiency is not only lower, but can also be detrimental to the cause since it doesn't make the main point as clear or adds unnecessary complications.

Compare that sentence to "Sometimes more is less." Which is more effective? The one that explains the phrase, or the phrase it self?


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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:42 am

Quote :
The reason being is, that sometimes more is less when more means that the efficiency is not only lower, but can also be detrimental to the cause since it doesn't make the main point as clear or adds unnecessary complications.

The whole point of my argument has been that those complications you call unnecessary have positive effects...

Quote :
1. A stern look from an authority figure when you do something wrong opposed to a lecture that goes in depth about the philosophy, the consequences etc. of when you do something wrong.

How is the first better? Seriously.

Quote :
2. Saying, "I love you" and a smile, opposed to an explanation of what one feels for another person.

How can someone really make feelings facts? What's the Benefit in this example you mention.

Quote :
3. A post with one line explaining something, opposed to a detailed essay which gets a TL;DR response.

This is what I argues with Sinister, General Liking =/= Better; in today's society it even tends to be the opposite

Quote :
4. Or, what we've been talking about TV shows where too much complexity becomes a turn off to the show.

Same as above.

Quote :
5. In a game, such as MM&M for example - the basic elements were perhaps better for the game, then the overall adding of complexity of Multi-classes and arguably even the fountain.

Same as above...
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:11 am

You're arguing with the assumption you're right, instead of with an open slate. There's no point explaining it because you're looking for it to be wrong.

At your first statement: Those unnecessary things don't have positive effects. They have negative effects. Like I asked, which sentence has a stronger effect, the phrase or the one explaining the phrase?

At the second one: Are you serious? When someone starts lecturing you, the majority of people understand they've done something wrong already and being lectured at only makes things worse, and a lot of times makes it so that they don't learn a lesson at all and feel as though the lecture is the punishment so "things a even". Where as a stern look is like "I'm not even mad, I'm just disappointed" kind of a thing, and then you don't do it again because you can see the feeling of the person better that way, and you weren't punished for it to make things even.

Feelings are fact...What the fuck are you talking about? The benefit is obviously the ease and strength of expression is not only stronger, but clearer.

Yes, but if it gets the same message across, or better yet a more positive message (I.E Actually getting the message, opposed to not getting the message at all). That's the point. Simplicity not only can be more effective, but is more effective at times. That's what you're disagreeing with me on here, and that's why you're wrong -.-.

Same as above.

Same as above...


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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:46 am

First I wanna say it's amazing how this topic has changed, and how it's already 4 pages long.

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Yes, but if it gets the same message across, or better yet a more positive message (I.E Actually getting the message, opposed to not getting the message at all). That's the point. Simplicity not only can be more effective, but is more effective at times. That's what you're disagreeing with me on here, and that's why you're wrong -.-.

It's still the same argument as before, General Liking =/= Better.
The point is, you're saying your so called "efficiency" is better, I say it isn't.
You're basically saying things should be "dumbed down" so the majority gets the message, while I'm saying a more complex message is understood by less but is in essence better (and on its effect on that limited number of people).

Let's say you can put numbers on the effect the message has. According tou you, this is better:

Persons 1-10 get 50% of the potential effect of the message, 100% of the actual effect of the message.

According to myself, this is better:

Persons 1-7 get 25 % of the potential AND actual effect of the message, thrown off by its complexity and leaving halfway through.
Persons 8-10 get 100% of the potential AND actual effect of the message.

Quote :
At your first statement: Those unnecessary things don't have positive effects. They have negative effects. Like I asked, which sentence has a stronger effect, the phrase or the one explaining the phrase?

Once again, there's more to complexity than length.
A short phrase can be quite complex, a lot more than a long one, as in many cases it has more interpretations. And the search for that interpretation brings positive effects in the person.

Quote :
At the second one: Are you serious? When someone starts lecturing you, the majority of people understand they've done something wrong already and being lectured at only makes things worse, and a lot of times makes it so that they don't learn a lesson at all and feel as though the lecture is the punishment so "things a even". Where as a stern look is like "I'm not even mad, I'm just disappointed" kind of a thing, and then you don't do it again because you can see the feeling of the person better that way, and you weren't punished for it to make things even.

Ok that's a ridiculous way of thinking, "Things a even"?
Here the main discussion point is majority[i][b] and what you consider a lecture.
Punishment for disobedience is a good thing, but society is so decadent many do think "Things a even". But that does not make punishment any worse, the problem here is the kind of punishment and the education of society.

Quote :
Feelings are fact...What the fuck are you talking about? The benefit is obviously the ease and strength of expression is not only stronger, but clearer.

Look, while it's a fact feelings exist, their effects are not facts, nor the way they appear in a being. While that could be researched on and eventually become a fact, psychology is not quite there yet. That's what I mean by my comment, using feelings as an example is not quite factual.

This is completely dependent on the recipient's psychology and the desires of the speaker.
Assuming what you're assuming, it's still a matter of General Liking =/= Better; and more importantly, once again the fact that explaining something is the opposite of complexity, it's simplicity, even if it's long.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:04 pm

The problem is you don't even know what we're arguing and as such, making points that are irrelevant.

We're arguing if simplicity is ever better than complexity, and the answer is - yes it is.

I'm going out right now - so I'll keep things simple.

Let's say you only have 1 person instead of 10. If the simple message gets to the person, but the complex one does not then the simple > complex. You can say the same thing for 100 people, if the complex message doesn't get through to one person then it's worse than the complex message.

That's an obvious extreme, but you're unwilling to admit you're wrong at moderate positions because you're looking to be right instead of to find the truth.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:56 pm

Epic battle thread. You guys should duke it out irl and record it. Then upload it for us to see.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:16 pm

Jay, I'm pretty sure you're the one who wants to be right, I certainly don't care about proving anything, it's not the way I am.
You think that if the message gets to everyone, even if the message is less powerful, it's better than a more complex message that gets to less people but is more powerful.
It's really a matter of opinion, both are needed really, but in my opinion the second is better.

SinisteRing wrote:
Epic battle thread. You guys should duke it out irl and record it. Then upload it for us to see.

I agree, but he's on the extreme north santa and I'm on the extreme south farao.

P.S.: The Pharaoh is not really south, but it was either that or: alien.
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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:35 pm

But...you ignored my extreme. If you can't prove the extreme wrong, then there's no point in trying to prove the moderate wrong IMO.

At the very least simplicity > complexity when simplicity is the only way it gets through. Therefore simplicity is at least sometimes better than complexity. Which...again is the whole point of the argument. There is no "opinion". It either is or it isn't Neutral.

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PostSubject: Re: ToR   Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:45 pm

Quote :
If you can't prove the extreme wrong, then there's no point in trying to prove the moderate wrong IMO.

Sure Jay, if humanity is practically annihilated and all that's left are below average intelligence individuals, then on the practical plane simplicity is better. UNTIL above-average intelligence individuals appear which is when it's up to complexity to get humanity back on the path of evolution.

Quote :
At the very least simplicity > complexity when simplicity is the only way it gets through. Therefore simplicity is at least sometimes better than complexity.

Not really, it may be better in that particular case on the plane of practicality, but in essence, in the plane of potential, complexity is still better.

Quote :
Which...again is the whole point of the argument. There is no "opinion". It either is or it isn't .

That's crazy! affraid
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