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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Odd DotA Statistics   Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:10 am

DotA Hero Balance Poll

I found this as a pretty good statistical website. However, there's a few weird things I see in the results.

I also advice any DotA player to take the poll.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:39 pm

I don't get what Buff/Nerf 1/2/3 are.

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:00 pm

Nerf 1 = Slight Nerf
Nerf 2 = Medium Nerf
Nerf 3 = Severe Nerf

Same thing with buffs.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:36 am

I stopped reading at this point;

Quote :
Silencer 6% 26% 24%

That's for buffs 3,2,1 respectively.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:49 am

Silencer isn't as good as a carry anymore. The agility heroes, IMO have improved early game and laning phase drastically with the new items, especially melee ones. Poor Mans shield and Quelling blade are just awesome. Silencer just doesn't have as much control as he used to compared to now. Also, 2 of his skills are sub-par. Lastword is easily worthless by animation cancelling and who uses Curse of the Silent over stats? He doesn't need a buff, he needs CotS remade, and Last Word to not be so easily countered. Even back in the day, he wasn't THAT good. He's so squishy, and you need to get your Int items so you can't really get more HP or BKB anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:37 pm

Wow. Djinni got pwned by Jay... epic.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:35 am

Here is a warning. If your about to read this please ask yourself a question first. Do you believe SA, VS or Viper are a carry? If so please hit the back arrow on your browser. This post is well beyond your comprehension.

Jay.J wrote:
Silencer isn't as good as a carry anymore. The agility heroes, IMO have improved early game and laning phase drastically with the new items, especially melee ones. Poor Mans shield and Quelling blade are just awesome. Silencer just doesn't have as much control as he used to compared to now. Also, 2 of his skills are sub-par. Lastword is easily worthless by animation cancelling and who uses Curse of the Silent over stats? He doesn't need a buff, he needs CotS remade, and Last Word to not be so easily countered. Even back in the day, he wasn't THAT good. He's so squishy, and you need to get your Int items so you can't really get more HP or BKB anyway.

The best solo's in the game are; Tinker, Puck and SILENCER.(Take your Shadowfiend crap somewhere else, with the changes to Imputus I'd say Enchant isn't a standout.) Agility carries cannot. (This is not open for discussion, Troll, Drow, Razor and Clinkz can get away with it, but they are very average solo's.) Out of that list, ONE is a carry.
Viper is NOT a carry. Viper is a ganker and ward whore. The same goes for VS.

Quelling Blade is average. Without quelling I can have an average of 80 creep kills by 17-20 minutes easily. (Range hero) With melee that number is lower depending on my lane set up.
Poor Man Shield is average. I think your over estimating how much it actually does.I'l agree it does give you enough survivability to to survive enough to last hit that's all it does. It comes at a great cost though. Will you be able to farm enough to cover the 800 gold early cost? (-cm mode is 603 gold. We assume one stout at start with 1-2 Salves +Branchs)
So before you even get to the lane you still need to farm 550 so you better pray you have lane control, which lets face it you probably won't. Especially with a melee hero.

Stats + Sheep. That is 20 strength by 11. If you cannot farm an orb by 11 then don't play a carry. Every agility carry also requires some form of HP. Bracers at the very most. Most players get 2 Bracers, thats 12 str. Silencer will still have more.

While Last Word can be cancelled by some heros (through animation cancelling) it cannot be cancelled by all.Last Word is still argueably the strongest Aura in the game.

Now lets look at some agility heros (carrys) and how they have changed.

PA - Stifling Dagger is a buff. Last hitting 2-3 creeps a wave with dagger at level 5? (Without having to go near the lane) That's pretty good for a fragile hero.

Spectre - Got nerfed. Ult cancelling when you swap? LAME. Although it's not a massive nerf, in a team fight you can just not swap and let them last their duration.....but still, that costs you some mobility. Also 20% constant v 16% for all. Meh, I preferred old but I'm more of a risk taker.

Troll - Much more of a team player now. Neither a buff nor a nerf. However as a carry I'd say he is weaker now.

Razor - With the range nerf and his ult changed his solo capabilities sort of dropped. I'd have him be babysat personally.

I'd say the only hero's that really got a massive benefit from the new items are the strength heros. But you said Agility Carries, not non range carries.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:30 am

I completely agree that VS is a ward bitch. Viper, only if you don't have someone who can't do it better. SA? As in stealth assassin? Definitely a carry, though somewhat nerfed since cloud isn't as overpowered now with True Strike from MKB (Though that's a different discussion).

I'll agree with you that those are the best solo's, however, realize that 6.60 has definitely changed the metagame, and everything from here on out is mostly speculation. Puck & Tinker are good solo's because they need the levels, and if they get them, they can gank/help in team battles and easily get plenty of kills and help a lot during team battles.

Silencer is item dependent and unlike the other two, can't gank or help as much in team battles, which is why he needs solo (That and he has an orb walk which allows him to be good at it). However, outside the laning phase, Silencer isn't that good. Mid game, he can't do anything, and needs to get a Guinsoo before he can do ANYTHING by himself, and even with his team, isn't as helpful. He's a good laner, but that doesn't mean he's good.

Look at it this way - you get stats....Which means his skills are obviously not as good as stats. So buff the skills, which is the point Neutral. It's not like Morphling, where you might just get stats first and your other skills a bit later in the game. No you don't get CotS at all pretty much. Last Word is too situational. A buff merely means you make those two skills worthwhile. Remake CotS and recode last word. Those two things are buffs. Do you agree that those would not overpower him?

Anyway - as for agility heroes, they have better potential early games with Quelling blade and PMS. However, they also, IMO have better mid and late games. Diffusal and Manta were both remade. Diffusal now has 16 charges, and allows many heroes to become more than useful mid game. It also counters key heroes such as Omni, Warlock, Tree, Sven etc. Even if there isn't an awesome use for it, it's a great ganking tool. Manta is also potentially better too. It gives good stats, MS and images. With the MS, though not as noticable, it does allow images to catch up and get an extra 2-3 hits (If they aren't killed by AoE). They have all their stages of the game improved. Silencer hasn't really been touched, and still has those bad skills, that should be remade/recoded - which is what is meant by the buff.

Anyway, I would argue that NA is the best solo since with 2 claraties or a bottle you can take out two peoples mana pools and there is nothing they can do about it. He's also functions better mid game, and though isn't a hard carry, allows better carries to farm. Silencer isn't as good a carry late as most agility heroes are anyway, and they all have their games improved. The thing is, you're looking at the old meta game. I'm thinking that the changes allow new heroes to be viable carries.

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:33 pm

You are both so terrible at DotA.

Pudge is the best solo mid in the game and can out-lane all but Nerubian Assassin and Wex Invoker.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:44 pm

After re-reading Djinni's post, I think I've found the problem. Good solo =/= balanced. Silencer might be a good solo, and that doesn't really matter, like I was trying to say earlier. What does matter is that he still needs a buff and/or remakes of CotS and a recoding of Last Word so that it's actually effective.

And seriously? Pudge? Lol. At the very least me and Djinni can agree that Pudge is NOT the best solo.

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:51 pm

SinisteRing wrote:
You are both so terrible at DotA.

Pudge is the best solo mid in the game and can out-lane all but Nerubian Assassin and Wex Invoker.

Go back to pub -EM games.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:48 pm

Yay, me and Djinni agree on something. Sin is fail Razz. Regardless, not rebuttal?

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:31 pm

I believe Last Word is coded the way it is for channel spells. The silence comes after the spell is completed casting.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:17 am

Way to not get the joke in that. Jeez.

Tinker is the best solo, obviously. But he has his counters.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:18 pm

I feel like this has become a fanboy post. Awesome!
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:47 pm

The post itself doesn't really show any fanboyism.

Anyway you don't look any thing like a fan.



That's you.



That's a fan.

(Ya, I went through the effort to find that picture topic and find you)

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:45 am

Jay.J wrote:
The post itself doesn't really show any fanboyism.

Anyway you don't look any thing like a fan.



That's you.



That's a fan.

(Ya, I went through the effort to find that picture topic and find you)

I just lol'd over 2 continents and 7 time zones (I'm in Jerusalem)
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:34 pm

Why are you in Jerusalem ??? You travel a lot, don't you?

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:42 pm

I feel stalked.

It seemed like fanboyism because only people who really like DotA would actually know who all those characters were/are... and I claim fanboy status for nothing. Nothing!
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:23 pm

Nah...DotA is the kind of game where even a noob knows every character. They just can't play them. XD

O, and sorry for the stalkerish nature. I thought it was worth the joke to find your picture. RFO thinks so Smile.

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:45 pm

Well, I just played Silencer and went 13-6 in a solo lane. I was up against a Night Stalker, so I can't really say much.

My team carried me.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:19 pm

I'm in Israel over the summer. I'll be back for 2 days in early August, and then I'm off for another 2 weeks.
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:23 pm

I just wanted to mention that Silencer was buffed, and I think in a pretty good manner too.

He now gets Int just for being in the area of someone dying if he has last word. I think it's 950 AoE, so basically if he gets EXP, he gets +1 Int, and they lose 1 int, opposed to you actually having to get the kill. This makes him so much better in ganking and team fights.

CotS was buffed too, though I still don't see it being used because he just has such bad move speed, and health - he needs stats.

Regardless - he was buffed Smile.

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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:35 pm

He is now a better solo than Pudge. Kill Pudge a few times and he wont even be able to hook! OWNED!
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PostSubject: Re: Odd DotA Statistics   Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:41 pm

You don't have to kill him at all. You just have to be AROUND when he dies. It's so awesome. You don't even have to DAMAGE him. O, and he can't combo at all around you...Is that what your joke was earlier?

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