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 Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency

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Should Inefficient People Be Annihilated?
Yes
67%
 67% [ 6 ]
No
33%
 33% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 9
 

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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:01 pm

This should be a very... strange... forum poll. The question here is if people who are inefficient, such as having mental retardation or physical inability should simply be killed off instead of wasting our tax dollars on trying to support them. Other, less noticable members of this group would be prisoners sentenced to life. They all sit there and waste our money while we make a good effort and risk lives trying to keep them there when they have absolutely nothing to lose.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:02 pm

As for my opinion, and I'm likely to get a "wow, you're a fucking douchebag" for this, but I vote yes. People like that should simply be cut off from our society instead of wasting our efforts on them trying to make them... "comfortable"...
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:18 pm

there are many factors to take in to consideration I believe before you could even begin to consider something as drastic, but all in all those who could never possibly give anything back to society, I do agree should be ended.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:06 am

Depends on whether your ideals.

Aiming for a "Master Race" choose Yes. (Hitler)
Have any ethics or morals at all? Choose no. (Not Hitler).

I think I've solved this. So who wants to be Hitler?

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:36 am

I do, except well I have no aim to remove people who have so much as a chance to do anything in society, but you know, no difference between killing the president and a hobo, just one gets a nation wide man hunt on you.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:04 pm

Just because someone is mentaly handicapped doesn't mean they will contribute nothing to society. When I was in Junior High, my best friend was in Special Ed. because he had alot of trouble reading, but he was a mechanical genius. He could take car engines apart and put them back together etc. I don't rly kno what im tring to say here, but I do think that for the most part we should dispose of them, but maybe each situation needs to be evluated on an individual basis. Criminals sentenced to life may as well just be killed though.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:26 pm

Jay.J wrote:
Depends on whether your ideals.

Aiming for a "Master Race" choose Yes. (Hitler)
Have any ethics or morals at all? Choose no. (Not Hitler).

I think I've solved this. So who wants to be Hitler?
You make a terrible point. Hitler wanted a Master Race. The idea here is not a master race, but a society in which everyone is able to contribute. Hitler killed people smarter than himself. That isn't what we're talking about.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:35 pm

Lagger09 wrote:
Just because someone is mentaly handicapped doesn't mean they will contribute nothing to society. When I was in Junior High, my best friend was in Special Ed. because he had alot of trouble reading, but he was a mechanical genius. He could take car engines apart and put them back together etc. I don't rly kno what im tring to say here, but I do think that for the most part we should dispose of them, but maybe each situation needs to be evluated on an individual basis. Criminals sentenced to life may as well just be killed though.
exactly, I only want to remove those who have no chance to help society, your friend there would be fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:35 pm

No, he judged them inferior despite their superior intelligence. You would be doing the same. Who are you to say who is inefficient and who is not? Where's the cut off point? You can't make the rules because then you just make make the cutoff point below you? What if I were to say you're lazy, inattentive and apathetic. Therefore you should be killed off to better society? Who are you to judge who is worthy of life and death for the purpose of the betterment of society? How are you to remove your moral integrity for more efficiency?

This goes to the Agent Smith conversation with Zync. Main question to answer - how do you set up a fair cut off point? I think the best answer is to let nature decide the cut off point, and let NATURAL SELECTION take it's place opposed to ARTIFICIAL SELECTION.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:41 pm

The cut off line is here for me:
Someone who is mentally handicapped to less then a 1st grade intelligence level with no special skills.
A criminal who will spend the rest of their life in prison.

and that's about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:58 pm

Why though? The point is it's arbitrary. Who are you to choose that? You really have no right or good reasoning, that doesn't conflict with morals. You're just picking on the weak (In the case of handicaps) and in the case of criminals, people who might be innocent.

If someone much smarter than you, much stronger than you, and just better in absolutely every way said well the cut off point is X, and you fall under it. I'd explain it to you but you're just not capable of comprehending it. Tough break. It's just about making society better. You can't really say anything. Either you should have no limits, or allow any limits that someone makes up - because they're arbitrary. Let nature decide. Not you, or anyone else for that matter.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:37 pm

For criminals, they revoke their right by committing the crimes that get them sent away for life, for the handicapped if they cannot pass a standardized test, that would be the cut off. The answers to these tests would be simple so if the person really has any decent thinking capabilities they will be fine. Morally I view a persons worth by what they can do and those who rely on them, if they only leech off people and cause havoc, my morals say they should be removed, from society. As for the who am i to make such a decision question, it wouldn't be myself alone. The test would be created and standardized by a mass number of people to be certain it is fair.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:22 pm

You understand what a standardized test is right? It's a deviation from the norm. If you implement the test, generation after generation and kill of those lower than the norm, the normal goes UP every generation. That means people today who would pass, would not pass in 2 generations. You're merely change the "Accepted value" every time. That's why it's arbitrary. It's socially constructed. There is no absolute. I hope you understand that...it's why I gave the example of the genius. If there were enough of them, then you could potentially fall under the norm. The main point is that it's ARBITRARY where you set the limit. Let nature handle who is fit and who is not fit. Not YOUR or OTHER PEOPLES CULTURES. There's a reason I capitalized Artificial and Natural selection two posts ago.

For criminals - I would hope you realize that the judicial system is not infallible. I for one, am for capital punishment - but I also realize that there are SEVERAL mistakes made, and even easily catchable ones made. It's not really fair.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:02 pm

Well that is very true, but even if we grow smarter as time goes on, we could use the standardized test of this time, but odds are that far into the future, we will be able to tell when children have genetic defects before they are born which would make this obsolete wouldn't it? Or we may even have viral cures we can inject into the fetus to stop genetic defect, who know, all I know is I can only plan for the now, and I think this system would work. Even if we didn't kill them, we could put them in separate places where they have to fend for themselves, but I find the second a lot less humane. All in all its something I could be brought to agree with, but I do believe it would take a LOT more planning then what I came up with in 5 minutes.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:20 pm

So you think it's humane to kill someone because they're lesser than you? That's just being a bully.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:41 pm

I find it humane to kill someone who has a negative impact on others, and generates no positive effects and won't ever generate any while being alive. I believe that it will help the lives of those who that being is removed from and does the greater good in my book. If then makes me a bully I guess I am.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:29 pm

How are you to determine whether or not someone will prove of worth at some future point in their life?

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:00 pm

There really isn't too much left that is "Natural" in the way of Darwin's theory anymore ya know. People that should have died from their diseases or from their conditions are still living thanks to society. Even I should probably be dead now if not for the salving effects of insulin. This is where I run into a problem with this whole efficiency thing.

What would the criteria be for eliminating someone? From the forum poll name I assume it would be a cost analysis. In other words, you'd take the price that it costs to keep someone alive and subtract that from what they add to society. If that number turns out to be negative, then the person is destroyed. The problem is that at some point you have to take in potential because every single child takes far more energy to bring up than they can contribute at that point. So the question is: do you force children into labor so they can pay for themselves or do you assume that education adds value to a child or do you somehow factor in potentiality into that equation?

The biggest problem I see with this is that you start to devalue the human on all the traditional levels. You turn to some cold bureaucratic formula to determine human worth and it begins to be a capitalism of people. The only other system that has turned humans into capital is slavery. I think that if this system persisted, you would see humans turn into slaves in their societies.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:02 pm

Okay - so humanity isn't going to work. Let's try pure logic and an actual look at the efficiency of mentally challenged people.

Mentally challenged people are of value for several reasons, they make the average person feel better about themselves. It's a terrible thing, but it's true. When people say "At least I have my health" they include things like mental health. If they were to be eliminated, then the average person would have no one to make them feel better. Because mentally challenged people are generally happier because they don't understand, keeping them around has an overall good impact on people. Helping an old person, or a mentally challenged person also makes people feel good about themselves. So that's two ways they are of value in terms of happiness of other people.

Not only do they provide people with happiness, but they are a good insight into things like neuroscience and psychiatry. One of the main reasons we know what certain things in the brain do is because we know what happens when they don't work. We gain much knowledge and insight from these people, and can therefore help people prevent or treat them. A good example of this is Broccas area or frontal lobatamies. We know what these areas of the brain do because of the deficits in others.

They are also a good source of capital. Industries are built around them which in turn help the economy.

So they're worthy of being alive because they provide happiness, capital and knowledge. That or you can just admit it's inhumane >.>

@Aqua: Why not? Evolution has chosen humanity as a characteristic and because of that, others live. People are just more "fit" even under lesser conditions. Fitness is about being able to survive in YOUR environment not the most environments. If we can't change ourselves, we can change our environments.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:19 pm

Its not easy to determine all the factors in a small brainstorm, it is something that would take months of planning, to ensure many safe guards, and protections along with defining what would be considered for removal. This is why I only say morally I wouldn't be opposed to it so long as it was extremely well though out and the standards were extremely high.

As for the efficiency of the severely mentally handicapped you called me Hitler but you want to experiment on them lol XD. jokes aside, you can't tell the talents of a person until they have live long enough to fully develop so they would be alive until they at least reach adulthood so you can test them till then if you think it humane. Anyways, if your argument for keeping them is because people who take care of them keep your jobs, the baby boomers are starting to retire in the US, they will still need more employees.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:11 pm

My point is that there are NO standards that work. None that work ethically or beneficially for society as a whole, but only for select people who profit and gain.

I don't really mention experimenting either...Are you referring to the knowledge paragraph? And I wasn't saying anything about a lack of jobs either. I was saying that no matter how you look at it, even the worst of the worst had some benefit. I could argue Hitler was beneficial because of him he got Germany, and really the world out of a depression, even if it was at the cost of millions of lives. But really - it's the same thing here. Killing, maybe not millions, but hundreds of people for some monetary gain. It doesn't matter how you slice it. It's just not right.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:37 pm

How hypocritical of you, SinisteR.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:39 pm

Bartimaeus wrote:
How hypocritical of you, SinisteR.
That wasn't very nice. We all know that I'm a pretty clever person sometimes, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:50 am

SinisteRing wrote:
Bartimaeus wrote:
How hypocritical of you, SinisteR.
That wasn't very nice. We all know that I'm a pretty clever person sometimes, though.

I'm just saying... jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (4/24/09): Inefficiency   Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:06 pm

What the hell is with the 57% nazism!?
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