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Rhys
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PostSubject: Questions About God   Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:00 am

Main Questions

1.) God Is Omnipotent - Yes/No?

2.) God Transcends Time - Yes/No?



Sub Questions

1.) God Is Omnipotent

A.) Yes - If he Knows all then He knows the right answer to everything - Yes/No?

B.) No - If he is not all powerful then something is more powerful then Him - Yes/No?



2.) God Transcends Time

A.) He was here before the universe existed - Yes/No?

B.) He was Created or Came into Existence as a result of the universe being created - Yes/No?


Final Thoughts
------------------

1 - A.) Yes - If god knows the right answer to everything then he will always make the right choice. If this is the case then he must not have a choice as it is made for him. Is this a mechanical quality of God or a mindless act of being right constantly?

1 - A.) No - If god doesn't know the right answer to everything then he is not all knowing with his powers and he is prone to making mistakes and being wrong. If this is the case is it not possible that we are just one experiment that he is conducting trying to get the perfect species created? How many times has he done this, are we the first or maybe the billionth? Is there a universal Reset button?

1 - B.) Yes - If god is not the most powerful being in the universe then the universe must be segmented control to multiple gods and we so happen to have this one who has control of our section of the universe. Or maybe god has parents who discipline him and are naturally stronger then him in scope?

1 - B.) No - If he is the most powerful being in the universe then does that imply a evolutionary path? that he or a species in general naturally attained his power level and it so happens that God has control over this universe as he created it. Sort of like a kid with a new toy that he hides in his closet so his brother cant get at it.

2 - A.) Yes - Then what created him?

2 - A.) No - What within our universe is strong enough to Create the most powerful entity in the universe?

3 - A.) Yes - He popped up out of the supposed big bang theory as a by product of its explosion?

3 - B.) No - What would be the most logical conclusion of a vastly superior and ultimately powerful entity within our universe?


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Honest Questions for Honest Answers

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Belial
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:08 am

I don't really believe in a little puppeteer who pulls the strings of mortals. Mainly because if god is as good and benevolent as people make him/her/it to be and he would exist then the world would be made of friendship and happiness.
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:24 am

I read them all, but will only be referring to the "path" I chose.

Rhys wrote:
1 - A.) Yes - If god knows the right answer to everything then he will always make the right choice. If this is the case then he must not have a choice as it is made for him. Is this a mechanical quality of God or a mindless act of being right constantly?

This is a lot deeper than you make it. The real question is, is something right or wrong because God said it was? Or did God say something was right or wrong based on an absolute? I think this is a deep question that takes more thought than I'm giving to this post. If it's the first one, then God does have a choice and is not making mindless acts. If it's the second one, what makes something right or wrong?

Rhys wrote:
2 - A.) Yes - Then what created him?

Loaded question as it has background assumptions. It assumes that he was created. "Do your parents know you're gay?" as an example of another one. You assume God was the first cause, and was not created and has always existed and always will. Everything in our universe has something that precedes it - but if you grant 1A, then you grant that God is the one who made the laws of our universe as we observe it. This does not mean that the laws of this universe apply to God. That's why God is "Supernatural" as he is outside of what is natural since he created it...

I never saw a question 3....? But ya Smile.

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kuro
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:04 am

What we consider good may actually be bad, and vice versa (1 minute read below)

[quote="Taoist story] This farmer had only one horse, and one day the horse ran away. The neighbors came to condole over his terrible loss. The farmer said, "What makes you think it is so terrible?"

A month later, the horse came home--this time bringing with her two beautiful wild horses. The neighbors became excited at the farmer's good fortune. Such lovely strong horses! The farmer said, "What makes you think this is good fortune?"

The farmer's son was thrown from one of the wild horses and broke his leg. All the neighbors were very distressed. Such bad luck! The farmer said, "What makes you think it is bad?"

A war came, and every able-bodied man was conscripted and sent into battle. Only the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg, remained. The neighbors congratulated the farmer. "What makes you think this is good?" said the farmer. [/quote]

Common rebuttal: "Why doesn't God come down here and tell all those atheists off?" The truth needn't defend itself. And, maybe, God wants to distinguish he who is loyal from he who is not.

God can be equated to a four-dimensional entity. Different times/dimensions are all seen simotaneously by God; he sees in 3D. (go youtube search the fourth dimension) Or, even, space and time may be the same thing, and dimensions are just a theory... who knows.




Omnipotent/very powerful beings cannot be defined by logic and reason. In some cases, maybe... but in things like "Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" logic does not apply. When asked why God didn't make us all good... maybe it's a test? maybe God is up there planning something? is free will even a good thing (we're the most evil+destructive species).
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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:21 am

kuro i would advise in the presence of Pyth and Myself to refrain from using the 4th dimension as a stepping stone for any arguments, trust me on this it is a constant argument that we actively discuss all the time and that youtube video is garbage.

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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:00 am

Fine, don't reply to my post Sad

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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:56 pm

Bart didn't touch this one Sad

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kuro
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:03 pm

Logic does not apply to omnipotence (sadly).












Anyways, if you knew everything and had the power to do anything, what would you do?

And again, without darkness, there is no light.
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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:50 am

Quote :
Anyways, if you knew everything and had the power to do anything, what would you do?

That is kind of the whole reasoning implied. First allow a person to believe that in fact yes your god is in fact as powerful as you say he is. Yes he is in fact omnipotent, can do anything and everything and knows all. It comforts the person, soothes them into a state of acceptance that everything will be OK. Then when they are comfortable and I have pointed out what they have clung to I point out the elephant in the room that they have ignored. Which is of course if you know everything, if you can do everything, then what exactly would you do? You would do what is expected, you wouldn't have a choice really. People in general never view the entity that they have been told about in a whole, instead they take the pieces they like and omit everything else. However when you start to piece everything together you really get a sense that the entity described is nothing more then a cosmic computer. An eternally running computer with infinite processing (thanks to pyth for this part) power that knew everything from the instant it booted up.

Jay.J was very right, the line of questioning I presented is one of the many that I present to people who sit down and ask my personal opinion on the matter, they are designed to provoke thought and even if they lay dormant for years the thoughts eventually grow into questions which you will as a natural human being search out the answers for, it is in essence a mind bomb waiting to explode at the right moment.

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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:09 am

Rhys wrote:
However when you start to piece everything together you really get a sense that the entity described is nothing more then a cosmic computer. An eternally running computer with infinite processing (thanks to pyth for this part) power that knew everything from the instant it booted up.
From my point of view that doesn't seem like a spot on analogy. God is being compared to an eternal computer, that had to have been booted up. From the knowledge we know of God He states He was never created, He just was there. I seems to me that He follows the rule that "Matter cannot be created or destroyed" excluding the part about "it just changes form."
-ps Rhys this is my debate practice +)
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:22 am

Indeed that's my point! no matter what there is flaw in the argument!

Its bad practice if I'm on your side and no one can actually argue against this.

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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:35 am

ohhhh. Well we must find another topic to "peacefully" argue to hahahah.
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:12 am

Anyone want to counter/reply/answer questions from my post directly Smile.

Jay.J wrote:
This is a lot deeper than you make it. The real question is, is something right or wrong because God said it was? Or did God say something was right or wrong based on an absolute? I think this is a deep question that takes more thought than I'm giving to this post. If it's the first one, then God does have a choice and is not making mindless acts. If it's the second one, what makes something right or wrong?

And...

Jay.J wrote:
Loaded question as it has background assumptions. It assumes that he was created. "Do your parents know you're gay?" as an example of another one. You assume God was the first cause, and was not created and has always existed and always will. Everything in our universe has something that precedes it - but if you grant 1A, then you grant that God is the one who made the laws of our universe as we observe it. This does not mean that the laws of this universe apply to God. That's why God is "Supernatural" as he is outside of what is natural since he created it...

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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Questions About God   Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:32 pm

Right And Wrong are moral codes that have been passed down generationally. There is no universal right and wrong, if there was you would not see animals killing each other for food. Humans put value on everything around them and placing value in a Moral code is no different then the value placed on paper money.

And the second one, it is a loaded question, you cant answer it. Its designed in such a way that you cant even conjecture opinions on it, because its concrete and irrefutable. Like I said on MSN jay.J, if you sit down with me and have an open mind and are willing to listen to reason I will take a simple building block of knowledge and work from the start to the finish building a foundation of truth and facts until a house has been formed for you to comfortably reside in. After all religion and god is nothing more then just that, a comfortable place to rest your mind in the face of questions that have no answers.

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