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Rhys
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PostSubject: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:28 pm

Currently Here is What has been completed and what will be completed for next release, I am debating moving this into Beta since I Do intend to have Nature Completed for Next Release. Thoughts on that Is Optional.


Completed And Working :
Dark Eagle Re-Balancing
Flash Freeze Re-Coding
Freeze Converted to Code, now deals damage based on power
Tazer Converted to Code, now deals damage based on power
Replacement of Element Islands With Elemental Territories
Enlarged Home Rpg Island to consume the entire top half of the map and Sections across the bottom sides
Coded All Creeps and Npcs onto New Terrain, it is Completely Playable as is
Modified Aos Middle Area Terrain to Give a feeling of being on a hill as well as minor terrain changes around the island
6 7 8 9 out of 11 Nature Spells
Implemented Everything Involving the Use of Nature Element. Elemental Choosing, Shrines, Upgrades and Abilities Work.
Edit Note : I cannot check the save/load feature for nature by myself so I do not know if that is working but it should.
Tower and Npc Armor nerf for Aos War


To Be Completed :
Fix 2 out of the 6 New Nature Spells that Are not working
Debug and retest Germination
Create 5 4 3 2 out of 11 Spells For Nature to Complete The book
Create Multi Books for Each Nature Element Choice
Create Disabled Nature Icon
Create Nature Territory
Implement New Loading Screen



Nature Spells :
Q : Rejuvenation : Target Hp Heal Over Time That Increases Hp Healed Every Tick, Lasts 10 Seconds
W : Force Of Nature : Summon Treants
E :
R : Venom Blast Cloud : Aoe Minor Initial Damage, Secondary Poison Over Time effect
A : Natures Wave : Basically Crushing Wave with a Green Model instead of a Blue one
A : Nature Gaia Wave : Launches a giant wave at target location, Dealing Minor Damage to enemy units as it travels in a line. Enemy units Effected are inflicted with a Deadly venom dealing 10% of the Initial Damage every 0.25 Seconds for 3 Seconds.
Note : Initial Damage is not set in stone however my first test will run with 1.2.3*Power with respect to levels as a benchmark test for balance.
S : Entangling Roots : Single Target Disable *Edit* Coded to deal Damage based off of Power. Freeze and Entangle Roots are set to Counter Balance each other as they are exactly the same with different models they will always be balance wise identical. While trade offs in the future can occur such as freeze increased casting range in exchange for entangle roots decrease in cool down.
D : Bark Skin : Passive : Gives Percentage Chance to Reduce Incoming Physical Damage
F : Venom Injection : Channeling Single target Spell That Reacts to Damage Dealt
Z :
X : Over Growth *Edit* Created coding structure but untested yet
X : Germination Note : Untested but should work now that leaks have been solved, will disclose info on this spell when I am 100% sure it works.
C : Nature Wrath : Unleashes Briar Thorns that Travel across the Ground randomly Damaging and Tossing any unit it comes in contact with into the air for a brief period.



Also it should be noted with two separate damage over time effects that are both aoe you could combo the two and would most likely ask if they stack. the answer is yes any spell will fully stack with every other dot spell for nature that is created. So if a third spell has poison in some form or another then it will also stack on top of these two spells ging on at the same time.

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Last edited by Rhys on Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:04 pm; edited 13 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:27 pm

I'm not for any new elements, but if you feel like doing all the work of adding it, that's up to you.

Rejuvenation is a bit bleh, but as long as it scales with power it ought to be ok.
Summon Treants: Same as Rejuvenation. All the summons are a bit blah, adding another one might just be more blah.
Venom Blast: Sounds fine, I could see Nature having alot of DoT stuff.
Nature's Wave: Sounds like a terrible idea. Woo for reskinning another ability on a theme it makes no sense on.
Entangling Roots: A bit boring and very powerful.
Bark Skin: Bad idea. It would basically be a useless ability and doesn't fit the theme of mages at all.
Nature's Wrath: Sounds fine except for the random part.

For Nature's Wave and Entangling Roots, I think you should sort of combine them. A wave of entangling roots moves across the ground slowly and entangles anything that gets caught in it.

Bark Skin could be a sort of retaliation. Like it has a % chance to make a Treant whenever you take more than 50 damage from 1 hit and increases your armor/regeneration a bit.



Everything else sounds good, but I would focus more on improving the RPG part and making the game more noob-friendly and/or shorter before worrying about adding a new element. (The M-Spells aren't even done yet. Imagine if we could have 11 new M-spells instead of the new ultimate.)
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:12 pm

so what is nature's role going to be? so far it has a bit of healing, a bit of dmg, a summon, some defense...but it doesn't seem to excel in any one field.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:43 pm

Idea: Barrage of Thorns
Fires a hail of thorns in a line from the casting mage to the target unit, much like Cursed Waves. 1 every .1 - .5 sec for .1 to .3 power.

Addition 1: Have the quill fire off at a slightly off angle, like a random angle btw -10 and 10 degrees off center of target, with accuracy increasing with more power.
Addition 2: add a pwr/10 dps poison effect as well, lasting essence/10 sec.

Suggestion: Change bark skin from a passive to a castable buff.

Idea: Thorns Aura
Melee version, would work well if nature becomes a summoner.

Idea: Spirit Watcher
Creates an invisible watcher on a tree (like the sentinel from melee Huntress) that lasts X seconds.

Idea: Natural Communication
Allows the mage to teleport/blink between Watchers.

Idea (basic nuke): Whip of Vines
Deals .8/1.6/2.4/3.2/4 x power damage and immobilizes the target for a short time.
Casting Animation: re-color the hook from DotA's pudge/clockwerk to green and shrink the individual segents, deals dmg and effect to 1st unit hit.


There's 5, I don't know if they help. Doesn't quite follow a theme or goal, so they may be useless, but hope they help.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:09 pm

Quote :
I'm not for any new elements, but if you feel like doing all the work of adding it, that's up to you.
Setting it up is the hard part because while the actual element choosing is only 3 separate functions there are a multitude of other functions needed to modify in order to set up a new element. Luckily that is done. So as far as work left on it there is only 5 spells left to create and two bugs in current spells to fix which mind you are simple fixes that i just noted needed to be done in my testing last night.

Quote :
Nature's Wave: Sounds like a terrible idea. Woo for reskinning another ability on a theme it makes no sense on.
Entangling Roots: A bit boring and very powerful.
For Nature's Wave and Entangling Roots, I think you should sort of combine them. A wave of entangling roots moves across the ground slowly and entangles anything that gets caught in it.
The Natures Wave I really cant Argue that point its completely true. The name by the way is not its actual name when its finished its just what i called it because i had to call it something. Unfortunately its tough for me to concept 11 unique spells for nature so we are gonna have to deal with the fact that some spells will re occur within the game.
As far as Entangling Roots I plan on having the X spell be a Enhanced version of Entangling roots that uses the Level of Entangling roots spell as an Aoe style Spell that targets multiple units with the Single Target Entangling Roots. So that spell is kinda being made already but not quite like combining it with a wave. The details on that spell is unknown to me yet as I haven't really gotten to it yet.


Quote :
Bark Skin could be a sort of retaliation. Like it has a % chance to make a Treant whenever you take more than 50 damage from 1 hit and increases your armor/regeneration a bit.
Interesting Idea. Here is what Bark Skin is Currently :
Level 1 : Grants a 5% Chance to Reduce Any Melee or Ranged Attack by 50 Damage
Level 2 : Grants a 10% Chance to Reduce Any Melee or Ranged Attack by 75 Damage
Level 3 : Grants a 15% Chance to Reduce Any Melee or Ranged Attack by 100 Damage
Level 4 : Grants a 20% Chance to Reduce Any Melee or Ranged Attack by 125 Damage
Level 5 : Grants a 25% Chance to Reduce Any Melee or Ranged Attack by 150 Damage

I tested this quite a few times to get good balancing numbers on this and its actually extremely useful. While it has absolutely no reduction of Magic reduction ability it does prevent a crap ton of damage and is extremely valuable throughout a game.

Quote :
Everything else sounds good, but I would focus more on improving the RPG part and making the game more noob-friendly and/or shorter before worrying about adding a new element. (The M-Spells aren't even done yet. Imagine if we could have 11 new M-spells instead of the new ultimate.)
I do not think you understand what I said by removing the Islands and making the Home Island more of a Giant Continent spanning the entire Map. The Rpg Side of the game is significantly larger, significantly. I cant even stress how much more is in the actual rpg side of the game. While granted so far I have not added any new creeps i simply have not had any time so the same exact creeps are still in the game just littered across a much larger area of terrain. In the future it will be a priority to add new creep units to the rpg across the land.

Mspells are hard to make. They are extremely complicated and consume hours of time to make a single one, I work on mmm an hour or two a day so that makes a Mspell consume days of Work time For me. On the other hand I made 3 Spells two nights in a row for Nature over the past two nights which makes more sense to me right now.

Quote :
so what is nature's role going to be? so far it has a bit of healing, a bit of dmg, a summon, some defense...but it doesn't seem to excel in any one field.
Natures Role I suppose is anythign related to nature. Which would be Healing over Time effects, Damage over Time Effects, Plantlike summon creeps, Physical defensive Buffs, plantlike disables, forest affinty type spells that grant abilities closer to the forest like invisible. All in all I would say that a Nature Role is a Utility Element that Can focus on one of a few seperate strategies within its Element or present itself as a jack of all trades. It does not have DPS, Mana Support, Instant Healing Effects, Silences, Open Area Escape Mechanisms and Im sure theres a few more things that you could come up with.


Quote :
Idea: Spirit Watcher
Creates an invisible watcher on a tree (like the sentinel from melee Huntress) that lasts X seconds.

Idea: Natural Communication
Allows the mage to teleport/blink between Watchers.

I really like this, im not sure if Id be able to get these done in a timely fashion but these are on my radar for an idea that is cool.

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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:42 pm

Some of the spells do sound solid so far, but others feel like they need a little more mmph to make them really fit into the game as is.

Nature wave I can see as becoming a great addition with some tweaks: for example, instead of spawning locusts, perhaps you could make the wave poison or even lightly stun/entangle based on the levels of those other two spells you mentioned: Entangling roots and the venom one.

As for the venom one, I think that a simple cast would be kind of meh. Thus, what if you made it so the targeted mage had a spider "unburrow" and bite the mage that is being targeted thus making the spell effect a little cooler to watch. Higher levels = better spiders (invulnerable of course) or maybe make it so that the spider can be killed after its first bite so it can be a nuisance maybe with a 15 second timer. This ensures the first bite takes effect but allows a little extra poison and damage to be spread around.

I second the idea of the watcher/teleportation idea. Sounds cool.

I can't really think of too much else for this at the moment. Good luck with it all though.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:57 pm

So we're adding in spells based on unreliable chances now, hmm? Terrible.
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Rhys
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:50 pm

well "We" are not doing anything more so "I" am adding in a spell that has a small random factor involved with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:35 pm

Well I think one thing needs to be done first. We need to look at what nature is first.

When I think nature I think animals, plants, insects. Abilities of these things are, numbers, brute strength, poison, herbs, scents, and camouflage. So I'd like to purpose nature:

-if it can summon be able to do so in mass
-damage spells be single target, up close and deadly (no real range or that wave thing)
-and side effects crippling
-healing overall powerful, but very slow to act
-can hide/confuse opponents on their position
-can lure enemies

Q : Rejuvenation: Target Hp Heal Over Time That Increases Hp Healed Every Tick, Lasts 10 Seconds

W : Enchanting Scent: lowers armor, attack, attack speed and movement speed for an area.

E : Seed: Seeds a target allowing you to see them for XX seconds

R : Venom Blast: Aoe Minor Initial Damage Poisons

A : Enduring Soul: 5% chance to endure damage taking 50% less dmg

S : Entangling Roots: 1 sec ground cast disable, 1/2 sec if mage is seeded. does dmg and poisons

D : Force of Nature: adds power, stamina, and speed to the mage

F : Crippling Venom: Slashes target dealing large damage, and poisons them

Z : Brute Power: Mages attacks become melee and gain extra damage based on power

X : Attract: Call and tame [X creatures] each have poison

C : Wall of Ivy: creates 10 ivy plants at location, each plant attacks and poisons. While the mage is near the wall he is invisible.

Please note poisons will do dmg based on power over time, and reduce both attack and movement speed. (slow not as severe as ice but annoying) Spells might be out of order but I think this is pretty much the theme that should be followed.


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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:40 pm

Yeah, Rhys as I always say, I hate to belittle your efforts. But, the proposed spells for Nature so far are either boring, imbalanced, already used, or random. I would focus it on DoT stuff like a venom theme. I like alot of diaster's ideas. I can do alot of suggestions like that if you want.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:47 pm

Well the point of my build, is to cripple their ability to run w/ poison, and either use that to twiddle them away slowly, or get up close when you have a chance and beat their heads in. Its attacks will be damaging, but it will need support or cover to get close.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:23 pm

I don't think that any mage can effectively use "up close" attacks unless they have a positioning spell or huge health or stealth. Lightning can use Crack or purge to get in close to cast thunder clap, but that's the only spell that is short ranged. Earth has huge HP and can basically walk up to an enemy and cast some of its spells. For example, Hurl Boulder and "War Stomp" (don't remember name) are up close. Granite Grenade is a good ranged spell, erupt is mid range... etc, but earth can take it because they are *the* tank of all mages. Even still, check out the progression: we axed the melee morph and only about 5 spells are close range. Thus, unless you give nature amazing speed or amazing health, then your melee idea will doom nature to fail.

Tl; dr: No positioning skills and mostly close range spells = FAIL for all nature mages.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:33 am

Didn't somebody make an awesome nature build w/ icons earlier?

It had AoE roots spells... it was balanced and cool-looking... :/
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:50 am

DBC made icons and spells I believe. Weren't they on the old forums...or were they here? We had a nature spells suggestion thread in the old forum...There was like 3 pages of suggestions/posts, so like 60-75? It's probably gone now though...

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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:40 am

that is the point of the having poison slow, and the nature mage does have an hp boost and speed boost, imo this will have a much easier time getting close then earth does simply because of all the slows and summons it can use to body block.

Combos:
Seed, entangling roots, and your next to the mage
Attract, minions hit w/ poison, enchanting scent, walk up using attract minions as cover
enchanting scent, wall of lvy walk up to them invisible

All 2 skill combos to get close to a mage, the nature mage in my build will also have extra stamina, movement speed, and damage resistance naturally, and if you need to tank further start things off by casting rejuvenate on yourself since it is an enchantment its like increasing your hp temporarily.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:39 am

Rhys wrote:
well "We" are not doing anything more so "I" am adding in a spell that has a small random factor involved with it.
So you're adding randomization for the spells in a game primarily based off skill? Unwise, in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:08 pm

*cough* flaming essence *cough* precision strike

I mean... yeah!... adding random to a game entirely based on skill... pfffftt that's pointless. I mean it's not like fire orb is random or anythi... oh wait.

Point taken?

While I'm half-way on topic, do you plan on making lightning worth something again? I miss glass cannons and dying to suicidal zap-tastic mages.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:18 pm

The problem with lightning is that to make it effective you really have no option but to be a glass mage.

The only true fix to that is either to change its overall strategy or to create new spells that unload massive damage in a short time. Which of course will bring us back to the original lightning element being very over powered.

In short yes I do intend to continue to make changes to element spells and I am fairly certain that at least one lightning spell will be changed in the near term releases, not necessarily the next one though.

On a side note I did hold a private beta testing of the new release with Lagger last night, I wanted it to be a small test 1v1 so that we could determine exactly how much the balance changes for the towers and npcs would effect a game and Im pretty sure that games will be significantly shorter. A 1v1 Game took us about 25 Minutes to complete in ANNS mode, Lagger ended up winning using Natures Treant Summons to Separate the 3 Npcs and then just unloaded stackable poison spells on them one by one. From the End report of Lagger Id say he was extremely happy with Both the new terrain and The current status Of the Nature Element citing him say during the match "Nature is coming along perfectly" after he saw the full lineup of spells so far and "Gaia Wave is not even Like Crushing Wave when you use it it feels completely different"

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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:19 pm

SinisteRing wrote:
Rhys wrote:
well "We" are not doing anything more so "I" am adding in a spell that has a small random factor involved with it.
So you're adding randomization for the spells in a game primarily based off skill? Unwise, in my opinion.

To be honest sin Im just happy your getting involved again =D

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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 pm

stackable poisons? sounds like a few of my spells may have gotten added, but can you maybe tell us a theme you want to work with so I can try and help make some more spells? Or do you have all the spells worked out?
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:55 pm

All the spells are not worked out yet. There is One spell I know I "Want" to make which is the entangling roots only on multiple targets using the original entangling roots spell. Also when I do that i need to actually code up the Entangling roots spell because as it stands now it is actually the base ability which is in wc3 right now so its not damage based off of power and is static. The spell Entangling roots is actually pretty easy to do, make up a dummy spell with a buff attachment having the entangling roots model attached to the buff, after that its all just numbers really as far as what needs to be coded. While Im actually thinking about that It has dawned on me how easy it would be to make Freeze coded and based off of your power so i may go ahead and add that in there while Im at it.

The Poison :

I am not using pre-existing abilities within wc3 to generate poison, I am actually using a modified coding system that Pythagoras Made for MM&M awhile back which allows me to create the poison effect based off of your power and it controls the interval for it as well. Here is a spell that is made so far for you to get what i mean :

Venom Cloud : Impact target Area with a Venomous Cloud that Deals a Minor initial Damage to the target Aoe. Upon contact any units within its Aoe are Inflicted with a fast acting poison dealing 10% of the Initial Damage every .25 Seconds for the duration.

Level 1 :Deals 0.2*Power Initial Damage. Lasts 2 Seconds.
Level 2 :Deals 0.4*Power Initial Damage. Lasts 4 Seconds.
Level 3 :Deals 0.6*Power Initial Damage. Lasts 6 Seconds.
Level 4 :Deals 0.8*Power Initial Damage. Lasts 8 Seconds.
Level 5 :Deals 1.0*Power Initial Damage. Lasts 10 Seconds.

Note : In game tool tips will have additional info like increased casting ranges, cool downs, mana costs and what not, i just wanted you to get the basics.
Note :Level 5 Spell assuming 100 Power will Deal 100 Aoe Damage and then it would continue to deal 10 Damage to any unit effected every 0.25 Seconds for 10 Seconds or in other words a total 40 Ticks or 400% or if you prefer the spell itself in its entirety without magic reduction effects will deal 5.0*Power to each unit over a 10 Second Period.

Also Lagger pointed out that there should be a Animation for the poison, I opted not to do that because there are mainly aoe poison effects so far and it would cause alot of effects to occur at once that are all green on every unit, i figured it would be an eye sore. The Poison Damage itself will pop up over the heroes head, and actually it's one of the funner parts of the spell is watching that damage tick away at your target. Also from testing Rejuvenation is an excellent counter to poison spells.

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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:39 pm

well that really doesn't tell me a theme to work with really, and an ranged aoe hold/disable seems like a bad idea, and since I don't know how your poisons work, giving them a melee skill could be a bad idea as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:26 pm

8/11 Spells Done, info on front page

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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:29 pm

Having two entangling moves that could potentially be chained together sounds like a bad idea to me. I would vote for ONLY the aoe one, and have it be in a slow moving but spreading wave form so that it can be dodged.

I would like to see the whole mage based on poison, and having the poison stack from different abilities at the same time. And from a balance perspective, I want to point out that damage over time should have significantly increased damage compared to instantaneous damage for a variety of reasons. 5*Power in aoe sounds like a VERY weak ability. I would opt for more like 8*power at max level since it's over time.
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Rhys
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Registration date : 2008-05-23
Age : 35
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PostSubject: Re: Next Release   Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:37 pm

Quote :
5*Power in aoe sounds like a VERY weak ability

I tested a higher rate and it was very obvious from the start of using it that it was over powered. I like where its at right now from what I have seen in testing it is at a perfect balance damage wise and only needs to be worked with the rest of the parameters to make the spell completely balanced.


I completed the 8th Spell today about 15 minutes ago, I have been trying to create new ways for poison to take effect without overlapping previous spells to much so this is the third spell now for poison damage that will stack with the other two. Durations and cool downs on the 3 spells have not been balanced yet because I have not seen the three of them combo on a single target yet so I will determine how strong it is from that test and find the balance on it.


Quote :
Having two entangling moves that could potentially be chained together sounds like a bad idea to me.
Your actually extremely right, I cant believe I didn't think of that. I'm going to stick with the single target version since its already done.

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