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 Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency

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Can God Make an Object he Cannot Lift?
Yes
25%
 25% [ 3 ]
No
75%
 75% [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 12
 

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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:54 am

I found a very interesting question brought up earlier:

Can god create an object that he himself cannot lift?

Give your answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:14 am

lol
we had this question on my forums, sadly the answer was prunned. If memory serves, he could but then he'd move the universe instead to make it move up, therefore lifting it or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:38 am

I don't think it was pruned. I gave the answer there and I'll give it again.

Jay.J wrote:
From Yahoo Answers:

Quote :
Actually, while I'm not a believer, it's not a winning logical argument because there's a hidden/missing clause.

Premise 1: God can do anything.
Premise 2: God can create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it.

Seems to cause a problem with the creation of the stone or the lifting of the stone violating the first premise, BUT there's an additional premise that's unfounded:

Premise 3: God cannot engage in paradoxal activity.

Which is not axiomatic. It's also probably not logically supportable due to the first premise.

So, God could create a stone that is so heavy that he cannot lift it AND can then lift it.

Topic over.

Edit: Didn't vote because it's not either answer. It's both.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:36 am

Jay.J wrote:
Quote :
Premise 3: God cannot engage in paradoxal activity.
If he cannot engage or do something, he is no longer omnipotent. Thus, your argument is that God is not omnipotent, which is invalid to the overall topic in the first place. This excludes double negatives.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:36 am

Dude you didn't understand the argument. Lamens explanation. Omni potency (Which God posses) means you can do everything. That includes the impossible. That means God can make a stone so heavy that he can't lift it, and then go ahead and lift it anyway. That's what omni potency is. What you quoted is what YOUR argument is. Cannot is part of YOUR argument of why God cannot exist (As a being who can do anything). I'm the one REJECTING your 3rd premise, which isn't explicitly said, it's a hidden premise. That Means he CAN engage in paradoxal activity, meaning he can do ANYTHING. Jeeze, learn to read.

Again your argument for why God doesn't exist as an omnipotent being:

1. God can do anything
2. God can lift a stone so heavy he himself cannot lift it.
3. God can not engage in paradoxal activity.
____________________________________________________
C. God can not do everything

I then reject your 3rd premise since there's no reason to believe so. It's not priori, nor a priori. You can't back up your 3rd premise, so we reject it. Your argument is no longer valid and falls apart. Mmm K? This is old'd.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:33 pm

Stupid God-related polls...

P.S.: I agree with Jay.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:09 pm

I don't believe in god. However If there was a god and I was to believe in him and his rules I would say that sure he could create something heavy enough that he cant lift it.

Anyway you look at if you are under the age of 30 you should mentally prepare yourself for the fact that you will not be teaching about god to your grandkids because civilization is finally starting to realize the stupidity of such beliefs.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:22 pm

Pretty bold statement there Rhys. Think religion, or at least the majority of the world, or at least the western world will no longer believe in any sort of religion, organized or otherwise? With religion being the Opiate of the masses, you don't just quit Opium in a single generation.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:38 pm

America I'm talking about anyways, who knows about the rest of the world, I can however make observation over the course of my lifetime, as a child I was shunned by many people in many places for not believing in God. Growing up over the years I find that slowly but surely less people believe in god as I get older. Personally I do not know anyone my age or younger that actually believes in god, anyone that I do now of refuses to converse with me about this issue and admittedly they only do so because that is what they are taught for 20 years of there lives and simply do not want to let it go and has nothing to do with actual logic. Anyone who is open to logic, who is driven by factual data, will eventually come to realize that religion is a tool used by humanity.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:51 pm

Personally, I think that's your enviroment that leads you to see that. People naturally gather with people that share similar views as themselves. IMO you've probably "surrounded" yourself with like minded individuals who, also don't believe in God. This skews your view. Also, as an adult you're generally exposed to less people that you know well as you're no longer in an environment such as school where you know a lot of people personally and well.

Also - just for the record I believe in God, and I'm pretty sure Pyth does, and you'd have a hard time saying the two of aren't logical people. I will agree with you however that you will pressed harder finding traditional Christians.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:01 pm

No, he can't. He also can.

But he can't, at the same time. He could create something that he couldn't lift, and then lift it right afterwards. He would create it being not-able to lift it, but he would be able to lift it after, anyways.

Hm. For the record, I also believe in God. And yes, if there aren't some more real, not traditional, Christians, the world is likely doomed. Why I say that, is because that the, "traditional" Christians, I believe were the old Catholics.

And if you have any knowledge of history, then you'll know why this is not what we want.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:08 pm

Jay you are actually very right on many of your points, personally I do believe your environment shapes who you are. However on you and pyth being religious it is because you choose to be, and i wouldn't want to shake that because Im not like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:02 pm

After dozens of God conversations with both intelligent and not so intelligent, and religious and non-religious people, I'd be surprised if you "Shook" my faith Razz. Regardless, we are somewhat de-railing this thread....even if it is over. A simple google would have answered this question. No real need to get into any actual philosophy Razz.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:35 pm

Rhys, you fail. The human brain has a physical organ devoted to God and other similar beliefs. You cannot stop people believing in God, because it's physically part of our body. It would be like getting teenage boys to stop masterbating and having wet dreams. It's just not possible because it is a physical and chemical thing.

True some people are born without this organ or with a defective or lower activity version. They make up the vast majority of Athiests.

It is also true that this organ does not necessarily have to be related to God. In some cases, the same function it serves to link certain people to God makes others think that ghosts are real, that aliens are among us, or that they will be reincarnated. It's not about believing in God, it's about the human need to believe in SOMETHING that is larger than themselves and beyond understanding.


I'm also going to operate under the assumption that your (for lack of a better term yet) "God organ" is malfunctioning and/or inactive because you don't seem like the type to be into ghosts or aliens. This means that your lacking the chemical interactions that our brains produce and that you cannot experience the feeling that many Christians consider to be "speaking with God".

From my own personal experience, I can say that it basically makes me feel invincible. When nothing else in my life is going right, I can always lie in my bed and pray and feel that someone or something somewhere cares about me. The incredibly feeling of "goodness" or what could almost be described as "love" flows through and fills my whole mind. It's stronger than any drugs. (Although technically, it probably is a drug produced and/or triggered to be produced by aforementioned "God organ".)


So yeah, God is part of the human body and mind. It can't be eliminated. There will always be some form of supernatural belief until either it is bred/evolved out of us, or we begin to physically remove it through science. (I'm sure that a minor injection into a baby could destroy the "God organ" before it even begins to effect them.)
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:36 am

I agree with Jay's thought. Its all about time really, God would create an object He "couldn't" lift at the time, but as soon as it comes into reality He would then have the power to lift it. I'm also Christian +)
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:52 am

And look I didnt even have to go searching for it, the stupidity of it just comes flowing right into this thread. God Organ... Seriously. You cant possibly want to actually teach that to another person and feel good about brainwashing another person with that.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:55 am

Ignoring every post except for the actual question:

An easier way to view how this question works in terms of logic is in the following example.

Can God make it so pigs have wings and the same pigs do not have wings at the same time?

Logically it is impossible for both to occur at the same instant, it is inconceivable that something can be true and untrue at the same time.

Basically we can use words to describe situations that are inconceivable, but since they are inconceivable, they cannot ever be conceived, even God could not conceive of such an event. It is simply a phenomena that occurs when we use language.

If you accept the above premise that God cannot do things that are logically impossible then it is easy to answer the question.

1. God can create anything in the set S of all objects (conceivably speaking)
2. God can create anything in the subset L in S that are lift-able (conceivably speaking).
3. God can lift all objects in subset L that are lift-able (conceivably speaking).
4. If God cannot lift an object that he creates then it must not exist in subset L, thus it must exist in the complimentary set of objects in S to L that are not conceivably lift-able.
Therefore: Yes, God can create an object that He cannot lift, but the object will not belong to subset L of lift-able objects. So it is not conceivably lift-able.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:04 am

Lol? I'm not making that up. It's science. There is an organ in the human mind of which little is know other than that it controls supernatural beliefs and that it is usually dis-functional in Athiests. (Except in cases where they believe in alien invasions or ghosts.)

Belief in then supernatural is part of human existence. Where you place that belief is up to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:19 am

Dragon over does it. You know how some people have pre-dispositions towards certain types of foods? And not even culturally or anything? Some people can handle it or like it while others aren't? It's the same concept. Some people are BIOLOGICALLY more prone to acceptance and trust. There's a part in the brain, that is related to seizures actually which is what causes a feel of Euphoria. This part of the brain lights up during things like meditation, prayer etc. It's more familiar as "The God Gene". But ya, like I was saying, in the same way people are more inclined to political dispositions, or religious dispositions BEFORE they're born. Obviously environment effects them a substantial amount - however given the same evidence there's a REASON some people will conceive of something one way and another person another way.

People have biological reasons they are inclined to be Conservative or Liberal, or a believer or a non-believer. The thing that's more up for question is how much that plays a role...And that's just a Nurture/Nature debate.

Anyway Pyth, why should I accept that God cannot engage in Paradoxal activity? Refer to my prior posts Smile.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:42 am

I made a flimsy argument as to why God cannot engage in paradoxical activity. Basically we can talk a big game because we have words and language, but just because we can put words in a certain order doesn't qualify inconceivable events as conceivable.

One premise most people leave out of their description of God, but is highly implied is that God is logical. For God to do something that is logically inconceivable is against God's very nature. And if you reject the premise that God is logical with any basis then you reject that the universe has order to it. Which means that you believe more than anything else that the universe is random. So you don't believe in the same description of God as the people for which this question is a conundrum, there are many other problems with belief in an illogical God, the first of which is that logic isn't valid for proof

The following argument is as good as any in an illogical universe created by an illogical God.

1. Umbrellas are a species of moose native to the underside of green Yo-Yo's.
Therefore: God can make a burrito so large that he cannot eat it, and eat it before he creates it.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:46 am

Why do you have to accept that God isn't logical if he can engage in paradoxal activity? Can't you just say that, ya....our brains don't comprehend it - but it still logical and follows some function. Like...electrons - they realistically probably have some sort of logistics and order behind them that we just don't understand and can't know at any given time...Just because of a lack of knowledge though. In the same we lack the knowledge of how you do something that's a paradox while remaining logical? My example isn't the best - but I hope you get what I mean.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:50 am

Logic is not knowledge. Logic is conclusions following from premises. If you allow that all premises are true, the conclusion should be possible to derive from said premises.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:00 am

And you judge the validity of a premise through....knowledge. You say an argument is sound or not based on.....knowledge. Yes? If you agree with that, then you can have plenty of valid arguments without knowing if any of them are sound, considering it's not a priori or a posteriori that "God can engage in paradoxal activity." as a premise.

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:13 am

You can't even logically prove that God exists, all you can do is assume premises and then draw conclusions based on them. The whole idea behind this question (As it is usually presented today) is to demoralize or discredit believers by "forcing" them into realizing that their belief system is paradoxical: that God can do everything and still not be able to do something. Of course if you believe that God can execute paradoxes, this question still presents a problem for you. Even if you answer "Both" then there is still something God cannot do. The same problem occurs with the answer "Neither". Of course the question did not originate for that purpose, it was pondered by some monks in a monastery somewhere.


Perhaps if I put it this way it will be easier:

Do you know of anything paradoxical that you believe God is responsible for creating?
If so, what?

Do you know of anything paradoxical that you believe God is not responsible for creating?
If so, what?

Spoiler:
 

I think I've satisfied the argument. I will now ask you: For what reason do you believe that God can do things that are logically inconceivable?

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PostSubject: Re: Forum Poll (2/21/09): God Omnipotency   Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:26 am

Quote :
Perhaps if I put it this way it will be easier:

Do you know of anything paradoxical that you believe God is responsible for creating?
If so, what?

Do you know of anything paradoxical that you believe God is not responsible for creating?
If so, what?

That doesn't work because CAN doesn't mean DID. God CAN create something paradoxal and be responsible for it...and God CAN create something paradoxal and not be responsible for it....doesn't mean he has, now does it?

Quote :
You can't even logically prove that God exists, all you can do is assume premises and then draw conclusions based on them.
Agreed - absolutely every conversation about leads to one side not being able to answer a question - and assuming both are intelligent it's because of a lack of knowledge. God by
definition is outside of this universe...and we don't have knowledge nor can we derive any thing outside of this universe.

Quote :
I think I've satisfied the argument. I will now ask you: For what reason do you believe that God can do things that are logically inconceivable?
I think I've countered it with "Can" versus "Has done". However your question is still a valid one. Why do I believe God can do things that are logically inconceivable? Because I believe God is Omnipotent.

Merriam Webster defines omnipotence as " having virtually unlimited authority or influence". That means, that with my definition of God, he can do anything. I guess you could ask why I believe God is omnipotent, and that I can't give a rational answer too. It's a part of my belief system based on my religion. If I accept my religion, I accept what it says about God. Some might call it blind faith, but if you entertain the idea that God is real, and that God wants his existence known...then he would indeed have it properly done within his books. (Note: Not Christian)

Anyway - if you want to continue this, I'd prefer to do this on MSN or something.

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