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kuro
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PostSubject: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:04 am

Right now I am about level 30 with a shotgun and fireball.


I am aiming for the stronger items, like 30k and higher.


Until then, I will be battling the same waves that I just battled over and over again until I can afford my gear.


At that point, I will repeat the same process, this time for another item, and again and again.


Then I shall keep playing until I am level 99, at which point I will try to get to the final level, and then stop playing after beat the game.


It doesn't help that I am battling the same creeps over and over again that attack in the same way every time, the only variety in them being 1- necromancers can 1hit KO me, 2- killing golems gets you entangled, 3- they get more hp and damage after each wave.




It gets boring after a while... Face Palm
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:28 am

It's called grinding and it's why I don't play RPGs in general. I believe Zync considers it a feature and not a problem. This is why I quit M&M.
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:47 am

I am playing Beta 6.2 right now. I do think the gold factor is low ( since I decreased the number of spawns ) and will increase it some time here.

And I do plan on adding variety in the waves, having at least 2 options each set of unit types.

But like any defense game, sure it can get boring. That's why even the great Element TD isn't played much anymore. All I can really do is make different spawn options for difference waves to increase it's complexity, without actually adding completely new game types ( which I do hope to do if this project continues long enough, but no time soon ). A few new items/sets each release isn't going to hold your attention, and I understand that.

It's cool. Don't worry about it. I don't expect people to wish to keep playing after level 99 right now. The game is, MAYBE half done, and that's being generous.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:02 am

Maybe I'll come back after a huge amount of new content is out and such. But my problem is less the boredom of replaying and more the boredom of playing 50 times before your powerful enough to do anything. I never was able to complete the Hawk set or finish getting to level 99 after 30+ games, and that made me lose interest. (That and the fact that I was always the only one to load a metacian of any significant level and was essentially soloing.)
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Jay.J
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:23 am

Quote :
without actually adding completely new game types ( which I do hope to do if this project continues long enough, but no time soon ).

Anyone remember the time where in MM&M this was announced? That there was going to be a completely new type of gameplay. I was so excited for it back then Razz. Anyway, sorry for the off-topic post, just thought I'd share some nostalgia...

_________________

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kuro
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:42 am

MM&M has a 11 spell book (where you can get two) where you play against other people (up to 12!)


Metal and magic is currently boring with the necessary super-grinding, creeps, and (right now) i have two castable abilities (shot and double shot, and the others come with extremely high prices).
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Fritz
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:48 am

I was always interested in making a type of RPG that had randomized situations and featured an age and item saving system rather than level. So, each game would be like a DotA type leveing system. Start at 1 and level up to say ... 200 (whatever) really quickly. Once you got to 200, you gain a "year" in age or something. As you age, you get more knowledge, strength, etc. I actually have a base for that type of RPG with all sorts of equipped items (attachments), but I don't know how to do a save/load system... so I lost my motivation.
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Balnazzar
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:53 am

It is repetitive, yes, but it has so much potential. (Not only because it's good, but also because it's hosted relatively often, and I invited like 2-5 players/hosts of M&M to ZMMM)
Because of that I hope you can do something to make it less repetitive on the upcoming versions.

P.S.: 300 Posts.
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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:39 am

The way I see things unless a pvp element of some sort is introduced its replay value once beaten will be rather low. The only other thing I can think of is multiple story lines kinda like NOTD AM, but even that game has pvp.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:52 am

I am gonna havta disagree and agree with a few points here and I do have some suggestions.

AGREE:
I agree that this game is boring in the sense that you must literally remake the game every 5-10 mins and grind those 1-5 rounds over and over again in to slowly become powerful.

* This is where I would suggest, more low level skeleton wave or other creeps spawning that are low level and can be killed by lvl 1 Metacians. In my opinion leveling from 1-50 should be significantly faster, since leveling from 1-50 is the most boring thing to do. After 50 you are powerful enough to make it to higher round and fighter newer creeps that are challenging.

The 1 hit necromancers is just a pain in the ***, I would suggest those necros take 50% health or something, rather than instagib. I know that your AI change from 6.0 to 6.1 was to enourage the use of longer range guns. Trust me it does not Sad, everyone will end up using Shotgun and some AOE shot (Fireball/Frostnova) to effectively level up and farm for money.
Yes I have seen a few people use Shotty + Bloodshot.

The interesting thing is only at lvl 99 can you try and beat the game with a bunch of people. So making it quicker to get to lvl 99 should not be a problem since it is VERY difficult to even beat the game with a bunch of level 99s. (This is a good thing)

DISAGREE
No PVP plz, there are so many other games that institute pvp, I suppose you can play those games instead, since this game is purely PVP. (interesting idea tho)

There IS A REPLAY factor, different builds and character setup (ideally). So if you were once using hawk with a high power build, you may want to make a tank with blood shot or sac shot. Or use different equipment and beat the game like that. So the replay factor is there its a matter of how you want to value it. But i do agree, once you beat the game, it is almost pointless playing it again.

SUGGESTIONS:

- Make more low level spawn, like skeletons to help build up gold and exp for low level metacians.

- Bosses should drop loot? For example if you kill those Big Golems, they should drop something like Shotgun or Mantle of Essence or something small, and maybe make it 20% drop chance.

- Implement something that would require us to use more ranged weapons?? As you know we are only using Shotgun and Tri-barrel in 5.3, 6.0, and 6.1. So I suggest Slow Moving (like crawling) range creeps that will shoot you from a decent distance (550). The troll level is good but pretty difficult if your using Master Rifle, since you can't kill some of them in 1 hit, and by then they would heal /regenerate themselves.

- Guns, since Shotgun and Tri-barrel are the best, the addition of new guns may offset this pattern. For example Element Blaster - that gives bonus damage to shots that are element based (like Frostnova and Fireball shot)
Light Blaster - that gives bonus damage to shots like Divine and Holy shot (and other "good" shots, like Replenish shot)
Magic Blaster - that gives bonus damage to shots like Faeri and other magical looking shot.
Siege Blaster - gives bonus damage to things like Missile shot and Pierce shot

So this would require you to simply divide all your shots into 4 simple categories (rename them as you like) and they would have corresponding guns in which gives them an advantage. So people would have the choice. Hmm should I use Element Blaster to get bonus damage to my Fireball shot or just use Shotgun or Tri-Barrel??

In my opinion this would be the first step to making other guns useful, I would personally remove all other guns, since they are not going to be useful in terms of play style.

An example of what these Guns should look like:
Element, Light, Magic and Siege Blaster - 400 Gold (low level version)
900 Range (this is double compared to shotgun and tri-barrel)
27 Power
25% Mana regen
Normal Attack 1.3 seconds cool down.
Special: Increases damage of the shot - something like 25%?
Special #2: Quick Shot: Shoots an extra projectile at extremely fast speeds for 125% mana cost. (This will keep the gun competitive to Shotgun) On a 3 seconds cool down.

Element, Light, Magic and Siege Blaster - 30,000 Gold (High level version)
1100 Range (Trust me 1100 range is perfect)
50 Power
75% Mana regen
Normal: Attack 1.2 seconds cool down.
Special: Increases damage of the shot - something like 30%?
Special #2: Quick Shot: Shoots an extra projectile at extremely fast speeds for 125% mana cost. (This will keep the gun competitive to Tri-barrel) On a 3 seconds cool down.

So overall these guns not only give rise to new play styles but make people have the choice of using Tri-barrel which shoots a lot of projectiles in a little amount of time and at close range. Or use a Gun with bonus damage with longer range but has less DPS but not significantly less than Tri-barrel.

But overall I don't know, I do like the idea of categorizing the shots into "types" of shots, and having guns dedicated for those "types" adjust the guns to your liking, but remember not to make it significantly lower in terms of DPS compared to shotgun and tri-barrel.
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:52 pm

I realize now that my gold nerf ( back in like Beta 5.0 ) was an attempt to get a player to their Set goal around level 75. However, with the Gun price increase, it basically knocked that back to level 99, which is utterly stupid. Therefore, gold reward is going to be doubled, allowing people to ( depending on your Set ) get their Set around level 50.

In addition, the reason people have been losing SO fast is because of the Golem rounds. In essence, they simply run through, practically ignoring the Metaciancs. That's being fixed in the next release, which, with the better gear, should make the games last about as long as they did back in the Beta 5.0+s.

PS Necromancers can only kill in one attack if you've pumped most of your stats into Power. Otherwise, that whole siphon thing can't even affect you. Other levels have similar effects, which basically punish a player for putting all of their stats in to a single Attribute. If you don't play such a polar Metacian, than those things will never happen.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:10 pm

I was able to get 2 sets by lvl 75, started to get Mana set, and then sold it for Element set. But your right, I can't afford Tri-barrel (I will havta lvl 99 for that).

Yeah I noticed the golems ignored metacians..lol I was gonna say something.

Necromancer...yah i see what ur saying, ohwell just hit and run lol.
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:35 pm

Scyon wrote:
Necromancer...yah i see what ur saying, ohwell just hit and run lol.
This is part of that whole "range is better than you think" thing. A high Power Metacian with a Sniper or a Master Rifle has no issue with the Necromancers because they stay out of their range.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:28 am

I guess we can argue back and forth about this.

Your argument being the AI adjustment you made from 6.0 to 6.1 will actually encourage people to use longer range weapons.

My argument regardless of AI change, everyone will still use short range weapons. Which is exactly happening right now. Everyone uses Shotgun, and once everyone is lvl 99 they will be using tri-barrel. (Unless there's something changed late game that I don't know about)

One of the biggest reasons why range plays such a small role right now, is because the creeps move so fast, the range on Tri-barrel is 550 and the range on Master Rifle is 885, how many seconds do you think it takes for a creep to walk that distance?

In my opinion that distance is SO negligible that it is better to hit and run with a DPS gun (Tri-barrel) rather be less effective in killing.

However from my extensive testing in 6.0, I have found that 1100 range (Using Master rifle with Missile Shot) actually made a difference to using guns with range. I indeed liked shooting at a range of 1100 with M Rifle and Missile shot.

As for sniper, I would personally wait on adjusting it until we can figure out how to make master rifle a balanced gun, since the master sniper really is a horrible gun and no one should use it yet.

PS: This ain't meant to be hostile, just an explanation of whats going on so far.
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diaster
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PostSubject: Re: Boring   Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:19 am

perhaps a continue system? like you start off the game with 2 continues, when the paladin dies you go back to the last check point level you had reached. Say every 5 rounds is a check point and if you make it a certain length in the game you gain another continue? this way you don't have to rm so often? unless rming often is what your shooting for.
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