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 Major AoE Shot Adjustment

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Would this balance the Shots?
That's what I was thinking!
20%
 20% [ 2 ]
Yes
30%
 30% [ 3 ]
Not sure, try it
30%
 30% [ 3 ]
Not sure, but better not
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
No
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Are you crazy?
20%
 20% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 10
 

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Zync
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PostSubject: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:17 pm

So I was going over the math of my AoE Shots ( as they have been the topic of much discussion recently ) and I believe I made a large mistake. I've been setting the base damage of AoE Shots equal to what I want to shot to do to the target it contacts. In other words, I've set them 33% too high.

To fix this, I would have to set the damage of Fireball Shot from 1.2*Power to 0.8*Power. Frostnova Shot from 1.0*Power to 0.7*Power, Corpse Explosion Shot from 2.0*Power to 1.3*Power, and Divine Shot from 1.15*Power to 0.7*Power.

Now I would like you guys to get away from the idea that this would make the game harder/impossible to beat ( I can always adjust the strength of the spawns if it makes that much of a difference ), and think more into the idea of weather or not this would balance the AoE Shots with the many Single target Shots?


Last edited by Zync on Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:49 pm

So you're saying you have accidentally/unintentially have code that makes AOE shots deal 33% high damage to the non-primary target.
And you propose to decrease the the multiplier on such AOE shots, to counter the mistake, so that they would be slightly less effective. Meaning the Single target shots would actually become more useful.

I like this idea, but the only thing that concerns me is the amount of creeps that spawn...you MAY need to tone down the massing of creeps..because as is the game is quite challenging. (challenging in a good way).

Also this change could results in the use of new late game builds, like people using Hawk Set effectively (with a single target shot).

So thumbs up from me. (whether or not people care about my opinions :S)

PS: you spelled "crazy" wrong :S

My vote is note sure but try it.
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Balnazzar
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:52 pm

I voted for "Are you carzy", tough they need a slight nerf, the problem are the single target shots, not the aoe shots, they are still too weak.
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:54 pm

Scyon wrote:
I like this idea, but the only thing that concerns me is the amount of creeps that spawn...you MAY need to tone down the massing of creeps..because as is the game is quite challenging. (challenging in a good way).
As it is currently, the number of creeps spawning is based off of the number of players currently in the game as well as the sum of the levels of all Metacians. I already have made a note to decrease the influence the number of players has on the spawn count. This will decrease the spawn count for a team noobs, but keep it almost the same for a couple of high level Metacians.

Hopefully that will resolve that concern, because I too foresaw it.
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:55 pm

Balnazzar wrote:
I voted for "Are you carzy", tough they need a slight nerf, the problem are the single target shots, not the aoe shots, they are still too weak.
I'd rather tone down the overall stats of the game than increase them. It's easier to know if you're able to handle something with 345 HP than 34,567 HP.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:06 pm

I think that you should drastically decrease the number of creeps but increase their power to compensate. (Except on certain waves, like trolls can still be masses.)

The problem has always been that when there are 15 enemies, it's ALOT better to hit them all than to just kill them one at a time. If there were only 5 enemies though, you might actually be able to manage it. So, triple the strength of most enemies and reduce the amount of spawns by 2/3s. ESPECIALLY ON BOSSES! It doesn't even seem like a boss wave when there are still 8 enemies chasing you, and it's still pointless to use a single target shot against them.


So, if you want single shots to be used I see two choices. #1 Remove all AoE shots from the game or make them so incredibly weak that they are useless. #2 Reduce the number of spawns so that there is actually a choice to be made.
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Balnazzar
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:23 pm

I disagree, I think the waves number should vary, and that Boss waves should be of 4 enemies (1 per lane).

For example, and I'm using random numbers here, wave 20 with 30 spawns of 400 HP and 50 attack damage, and wave 21 with 25 spawns of 650 HP and 75 attack damage.

My point, make the waves more unique.

Besides, I think the change should start with the waves, not the equipment, make the AoE Shots weaker for now, then work on the waves, and see how things turn out, Thats my opinion.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:20 pm

Thanks Zync, i was hoping that you would foresee this issue regarding spawn rates and being able to deal damage.

I do believe that this overall issue of spawn and being able to kill them effectively is of concern. It seems to to be 2 ways to solve this issue. #1 my suggestion of increasing damage of weapons to handle the waves (which no one liked) which is fine. or #2 decreasing the damage of the shots and have less spawning creeps so that single target shots would actually be useful.

Overall I think everyone can agree AOE shots are overall more effective at killing than single target shots, which is why we only primarily use AOE shots.

So if you look at this technically, by reducing AOE damage by 33%, if fine, as long as you scale down the wave (drop hp? less creeps? less damage that creeps do??) by a reasonable amount so that players can still kill them in a timely manner.

PS: Why do the spider his for 100 damage?? and do poison?? That's some insane damage and they have invis strike. (still beatable but surprisingly high)

PS2: I think my suggestions would make an easier fix to this problem overall, as apposed to adjusting the damage of the shots and correspondingly adjusting the waves of creeps...but that's my opinion :S


Last edited by Scyon on Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:23 pm

I'm not sure if this would balance the shots... they deal damage to about 5 targets with only a 1/2 damage penalty on them. That's really 2.5x more overall damage... but that excludes the low-level waves. Reducing it by a third may decrease the shots to the point of uselessness during high-level waves, but they're already nigh useless anyways. I voted that I'm not exactly sure, and you should try it.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:11 am

Just a straight up question Zync...What is ur goal in terms of making these adjustments? What kind of balancing do you want, and what outcome are you ultimately looking for?

PS: If you are looking to encourage the use of single shots (this may work), but if your looking to fix the mistake u accidentally did, then by now I think you understand how needed that mistake is required (33% boost in damage to AOE) shots to beat this game or kill creeps effectively.

Here's an example to help you better answer your question:

My suggestions (no repeat) are to change the way (or give players who are lvl 99), more variety in end game fighting, allowing player to use Master Rifle, Master Sniper and Tri-barrel, in different ways than they are currently being used. Also use different shots so that people can play differently. (Other than the overused and overly effective Tribarrel + Divine shot).

PS: Who are the 2 people who voted "Are you crazy??" I certainly wasn't one...lol


Last edited by Scyon on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Balnazzar
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:32 pm

Damn it, he (Scyon) is close to being as annoying as Hades.

Suggestions: Rounds with very varying number of creeps, weaker AoE shots, a different ability for the sniper rifle, or maybe just add another ability to them. Better 1 target shots [Not just in damage, you could give them some kind of bonus (not the same to all of them), like a range increase, and make range actually matter.


P.S:
Quote :
PS: Who are the 2 people who voted "Are you crazy??" I certainly wasn't one...lol

Why the hell do you care?

Also, put a period at the end of that sentence.
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HolyNeko
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:41 pm

yeah scyon keeps posting stuff where it doesn't belong =/ hes asking opinions not friggen questions so make a new topic for that!!!!!!!!
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Balnazzar
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:49 pm

Quote :
yeah scyon keeps posting stuff where it doesn't belong =/ hes asking opinions not friggen questions so make a new topic for that!!!!!!!!


It's not that, it's his moronic attitude.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:25 pm

I only wanted to see their rationale for voting "crazy", everyone has an opinion, just wanted to see their justification as to why?

PS: I also suggested range bonuses to guns (mainly M Rifler and M Sniper) in my suggestions (since I really don't believe range plays a key role, even with the AI changes in 6.1, but no one really believes me) :S
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Balnazzar
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:29 pm

Quote :
PS: I also suggested range bonuses to guns (mainly M Rifler and M Sniper) in my suggestions (since I really don't believe range plays a key role, even with the AI changes in 6.1, but no one really believes me) :S


Start paying more attention to what people OTHER THAN YOURSELF say.
Zync already said range would play a more important role in later versions.

Besides, I suggested a range bonus to SHOTS, not guns, and I didn't even limit to range, I aid any kind of bonus besides damage, and now that I think about it, maybe some shots (Like AoE shots) should have a range reduction, or some kind of downside like that.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:50 pm

Wow you (Balnazzar) only seem to attack me when i'm clearly making suggestions to help make this game more enjoyable. Plz delete this post since it is utterly useless.
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SinisteRing
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:53 pm

Chill out, guys. Stop attacking eachother. If I see another post directly aimed at eachother and not at the topic at hand, I'm going to have to get involved.

Seriously, just relax.
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:13 am

Well, honestly I'm tired of explaining myself to you Scyon, and while I appreciate Balnazzar's defense, I have to agree with SinisteRing and ask both of you to stop the flaming.

There will be some small tweaks again, but nothing like what you suggested, nor will it ever be. So we need to drop it.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:55 am

None of my post today have been hostile in anyway or targeted in terms of disrespect to anyone. All my post were quite thoughtful suggestions.
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PostSubject: Re: Major AoE Shot Adjustment   Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:19 pm

Been playing MM all day and someone suggested that if/when the 33% decrease to AOE shots does happen, it may encourage people to use single shots. However, he was more concerned about EXP and Money per level.

So f you have wave 1 with 4 creeps and each give 25 exp, but now with this modicaition you decrease wave one to 3 creeps that give only 25 exp, this would result in less SCORE (which is used to calculate money), so the income will be less.

So im just giving u a heads up on that.
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