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Zync
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PostSubject: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:53 pm

There are a couple of major balance changes in Beta 6.0b.
- Divine Shot nerf
- Tribarrel tri-shot mana increase
- Gun price increase

So far, I have heard from one individual that the increased mana cost of Divine Shot is just too much. Do you agree?
Is there anything about these major changes that you disagree with? ( Please give reasoning beyond "I liked it better" or "now my Metacian sucks" )
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:23 pm

With the mana cost increase of Tribarrel AND Divine Shot, it will be very hard to use them together now.

Time to rethink my metacian.
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Scyon
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:35 am

Firstly Royal Set is now useless In my opinion, the set bonus was reduced making it useless compared to other sets.

Why use Royal when currently the best all around set is Element Set with Robe of Magi, using Tri Barrel with Rep., Divine, and Fireball shots.

I am now gonna be re-testing Mage set since it has magic immunity cos those Kobold waves own my team.

Divine shot is fine... I din't mind the change because I use multiple shots while fighting..., start with fire (low mana cost) good damage, and end with Divine when cornered and need to heal uther.

The mana cost increase for Tri barrel is fine...we all know this is the best weapon in game..almost pointless to use any other gun because they pose no real advantage.

The gun price increase is rather useless, since you can purchase the gun in 5.3 and bring it into 6.0 (not gonna explain the exploit here) but i think u know what im getting at.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:31 pm

Quote :
Time to rethink my metacian.
Quote :
( Please give reasoning beyond "I liked it better" or "now my Metacian sucks" )

Didn't contribute anything to this topic. Smile I realize neither did I, but I also don't play M&M.

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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:54 pm

I think that a pure stamina metacian should be able continously for 30 seconds from full mana using both regular and tr-shot. Before, I was able to fire blood shot for a round(taking out 1-2 waves of 3) with some mana issues(including the use of 2 mana potions a round). Now the mana cost is too much for that. I thought the whole thought of balancing the tri-barrel was having it at a short range, placing you near danger with every shot. This making it so the the glass cannons, have to use a one shot rifle and not being over powered by firing 3 high damage aoe shots every few seconds.
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BlacRyu
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:50 pm

BashAndSmash wrote:
I think that a pure stamina metacian should be able continously for 30 seconds from full mana using both regular and tr-shot. Before, I was able to fire blood shot for a round(taking out 1-2 waves of 3) with some mana issues(including the use of 2 mana potions a round). Now the mana cost is too much for that. I thought the whole thought of balancing the tri-barrel was having it at a short range, placing you near danger with every shot. This making it so the the glass cannons, have to use a one shot rifle and not being over powered by firing 3 high damage aoe shots every few seconds.

I think he has a point, Since Tri-barrel has such low range it should be mainly used by tanking classes who would normally get in close anyways, and not by everyone who wants to do tons of damage. For this reason I thought up a few suggestions. The first two could be new features that apply to all guns, or maybe just to the Tri-barrel for balance.

1. Recoil
Whenever a Metacian fires their gun they are immobilized for a short duration (0.5 - 1.0 seconds) to regain their balance (depending on the power of the gun. I don't mean the stat "power" but that might work too). This would also make people re-think spamming both tri-shot and single-shot as they would no doubt be swarmed by creeps. Long range guns wouldn't really care even if they were immobilized for 2 or more seconds as they shouldn't need to move much anyways.


2. Movespeed Debuff
Depending on the weight of a gun, the user must run slower. As Tri-barrel is a big hunk-o-metal, it would have a significant slowing effect. This would force the user to compensate by buying movespeed items (instead of power!) or by running for longer periods between shots or by simply tanking, as it is intended (we think).


3. Less range
kinda self-explanatory. Just lower the range so its more dangerous to use for fragile characters as they are forced even closer to the action.


I think these suggestions would help balance out the gun so that it is aimed more for the usage by tanking classes or hybrid classes that can survive getting in close and taking a few hits. The recoil system might be a little bit too much to implement but the movespeed decrease would give people the option of buying movespeed increase items, or tanking items if they are thinking of using tri-barrel. If you want I could split this into another topic for discussion or a poll, or if you don't want you can just forget about it Very Happy
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:37 pm

Interesting.

I would never do 1, and 3 is going to be accomplished circumstantially with good AI.

I honestly didn't think of a Movespeed Debuff, and never planned on it. I'll try to keep this in the back of my mind, and we'll discuss it if you think it is still necessary once you get a taste of the upcoming AI.
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Dragonheart91
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

With Divine Shot, I just need a little bit of hp to be able to tank. Just run into an enemies face and spam both of the shots to massively heal myself. That's the build I've been using for a while. Although, with the increased mana cost of both it will be hard to maintain sufficient Stamina for not dying in one hit, Power for dealing damage/self-healing, and Essence for casting.

The other advantage of that strategy was that you get triple the money. Money for tanking, money for healing, and money for dealing damage in an aoe. If no one else is around you get quadruple for the killing too.


Although even with that I've played a couple dozen games and can't afford the Hawk set yet. (Buying no other items besides Divine Shot, Tribarrel, and whatever Hawk Set pieces I can afford.)
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:01 pm

100% agree with Dragonheart, im opinion this that build u just said is what most people use, because it is the only effective method of killing. FYI hawk set is nice, but Element Set + Robe of the Magi will give u enough mana regen to keep shooting for a long period!
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:39 pm

BlackRyu, it seems like ur suggestions are to further hurt or diminish the use of tri-barrel...when in fact tri-barrel is just fine...all the other guns suck. That's why I posted my suggestions about the entire game in the Suggestion Sections.

IE master rifle should have 0.5 cool down so that you can actually shoot effectively with it.

The Sniper should have more range and power so that you can make each shot count..more range means less moving and shooting across the map... etc its all explained in my post.

I don't wand to play Metal and Magic whereby there's only 1 viable build to win, Tri-barrel, and divine shot..all guns should be balanced in terms of effectiveness to kill and handle mass creeps in their own way, same with the shots.
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:17 am

Scyon wrote:
BlackRyu, it seems like ur suggestions are to further hurt or diminish the use of tri-barrel...when in fact tri-barrel is just fine...all the other guns suck. That's why I posted my suggestions about the entire game in the Suggestion Sections.
I'm actually trying to find a happy medium. So I'm nerfing Tribarrel slightly, and increasing the strength of the master Guns slightly as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:22 am

Zync the problem is not Tri-barrel... the problem is the other guns suck, they don't deal more DPS... the only way to do so, is if Master Rifle had a lower cool down and if Master Sniper had a huge boost in Range and Power.

Fine...further nerf tri-barrel.. its DPS will still outshine all other guns, regardless...
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Zync
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:46 am

It's DPS SHOULD outshine the other guns. But it puts the wielder at risk ... you will see. I just released Beta 6.1 which includes a code reset and bunches of AI. Remember, this is Beta. I appreciate the help ( mainly the debugging help that Pythagoras has done ) but you're attempting to balance a game which much of it is still simply in my head.

I'm off to upload the new version to EpicWar right now, so give it a go.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:01 am

Kk, i was just gonna suggest not to reset the so that we can test late game performance and stuff....but as long as there aren't so many resets a long the way.

Well now that you made it clear that u want to make the Tri-barrel DPS outshine all other guns, then obviously u only need Divineshot to keep urself alive...

Honestly this game has so much more potential to be more fun with variety of end game builds.

in 5.3 and 6.0, no matter what you wanna play, you pretty much see all lvl 99 Metacians with Tri-barrel and Divineshot...kinda boring how that its essentially the only end game build. Since almost all other builds are no longer viable after a certain level.

Regardless I'm gonna give 6.1 a shot and see how that goes.

Thanks.
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BlacRyu
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:10 am

Scyon wrote:
BlackRyu, it seems like ur suggestions are to further hurt or diminish the use of tri-barrel...when in fact tri-barrel is just fine...all the other guns suck. That's why I posted my suggestions about the entire game in the Suggestion Sections.

IE master rifle should have 0.5 cool down so that you can actually shoot effectively with it.

The Sniper should have more range and power so that you can make each shot count..more range means less moving and shooting across the map... etc its all explained in my post.

I don't wand to play Metal and Magic whereby there's only 1 viable build to win, Tri-barrel, and divine shot..all guns should be balanced in terms of effectiveness to kill and handle mass creeps in their own way, same with the shots.

I wasn't intending to nerf tri-barrel, that could be done by simply reducing it's stats. What I'm trying to do is establish its role as an item for tanks. As you said currently there is only one build, that is why we need to give tri-barrel some disadvantage that would make people either look for an alternative, or come up with a way to compensate for that disadvantage (giving multiple builds). I agree it would help to modify more than just tri-barrel itself, which is why I added a new gun ability to the suggestion section immediately after I posted in this thread about the tri-barrel modifications.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:21 am

PS: Zync very little change in 6.1 from 6.0?? looks the same and feels the same, making everyone who plays it now, not want to play it :S, complaining guns are too expensive, and etc. Basically the same setup will be the dominant build, Tri-barrel + Divine shot...boring end game play again :S

To: BlackRyu, how about we stop complaining about how good tri-barrel is and start complaining about how shitty the Master Rifle and Sniper are...

The reason why everyone uses Tri-barrel and divine is because its the only VIABLE option, who cares how close tri-barrel range it, just equip divine shot and you become a tank. No refuting that.

The problem is Master Rifle and Sniper need a BIG boost in every way possible.
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BlacRyu
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PostSubject: Re: Beta 6.0b Major Changes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:25 am

Quote :
I agree it would help to modify more than just tri-barrel itself, which is why I added a new gun ability to the suggestion section immediately after I posted in this thread about the tri-barrel modifications.
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